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(Post Link) post #1 of 16 Old 16-09-14 Thread Starter
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Cf1 kia

Ladies and Gents..

Dunno what went wrong yet.. but my 21,000 miles old cam-belt was killed in action on the M4 the other day. I suspect the water pump collapsed but the jury is out/to be proven.

Any road up.. the head is likely to be a mess and I can't find tooooo much in the way of replacement motore's (for a quick and easy engine swap). My beast is a CF1 in 1.8 flavour, just to make things extra tricky.

1) Will a CF1 2.0ltr engine fit straight in and work with my 1.8ltr ECU? I just want a simple engine swap rather than messing about with *any* additional work.

2) Failing that, will a CF1 2.0 ltr head fit onto the 1.8? I understand that the 1.8 cams and stuff (sensors etc.) will be needed.. but obviously I have those. This might just be cheaper/easier than finding/lapping new valves etc.

3) If I can't find a CF1 1.8, or 2.0ltr head (if it fits) will the CF2 items fit?

4) If I end up fixing my old head and valves.... where can I find reasonable price valves and big end bearing shells...? Is there a "size" on big-end shells or are they all the same?

Graziarse...

Ralf S.

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Cylinder heads are the same from 2.0 to 1.8, so a 2.0 CF1 head will fit, yes. You can also use a 1.8/2.0 CF2 head but you would need to change the exhaust cam pulley & phase sensor. You'd also need to remove a grub screw and install the temp sensor from your old cylinder head.

You can't use a 2.0 CF3 head as it doesn't have the hole for the temp sensor anymore, they stopped drilling & tapping them when they went from CF2 to CF3.

Big end bearing shells are sized.. They are colour coded by a dab of paint but you might find it isn't there anymore when you come to remove the old ones. Best measure the crank IMO.

A colleague of mine fitted a 2.0 CF1 engine into his 1.8 CF1 145, and he needed to swap to a 2.0 CF1 ECU to get it to run well. Seems the CF1 ECUs aren't as flexible as the later ones. But it was all plug & play otherwise.

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(Post Link) post #3 of 16 Old 16-09-14 Thread Starter
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Cheers.

I'll start looking for a CF1 head then.. at least until I've got my old donkey apart and seen what the damage is. If the damage is minimal, it'd make sense to just fix what needs fixing.... If it's a nasty 'orrible mess in there (I was on the motorway) then a replacement head might be quicker/easier.

Pity the 2.0 ltr isn't a straight swap.. and similarly, I'll probably avoid CF2s unless I don't get any joy with CF1s... I need my car back on the road, which is the biggest problem.

I've since seen that the bearing shells have colours.. though I have no idea if mine still show paint marks. I'll have to measure them I suppose.


Anyway... job for some of the weekend I guess..


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I've had some investgations... the 2.0 and 1.8 CF1 engines are essentially identical from the inlet manifold back and from the exhaust manifold forwards.

Just an ECU will be needed and the alternator and front/cam-belt engine mount.

But if I go for a 2.0 ltr CF1 motoe and ECU... I'd need to re-program my keys, I'd guess. Can anyone do that, if I just had a bare ECU (no master key)?


Also... would a (my) 1.8 CF1 ECU power up a 1.8 CF2 motore? There's a few 1.8 CF2 engines on fleabay.


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Your ECU would run a 1.8 CF2 motor just fine. You'd need to swap ancillaries from your CF1 onto the CF2, for example inlet manifold, thermostat, rocker cover, coil packs, engine loom etc. Best if whatever engine you receive, just strip it down bare first and use all your old stuff to avoid complication.

If I was fitting a 2.0 CF1 motor I would get an ECU, code box & keys from the same car. Fit the ECU, fit the codebox, unclip the key reader ring from the ignition barrel and cellotape the new key to it and tuck it under the dash somewhere. Then continue to use your old keys as before. If you're parking the car up somewhere dodgy looking, then take the cellotaped key with you as well so it puts the immobiliser on.

Unfortunately the transponder chips inside your keys are "write once" so reprogramming them for the immobiliser is not an option. If you don't like my pikey method above then your alternative is to go into a Timpsons with your old key (for the blade) and the key that comes with the 2.0 ECU, they can read the transponder code off it and write that to a new blank key and then cut it with the pattern off your old blade. They'll probably want about £40 per key you want cut.
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(Post Link) post #6 of 16 Old 17-09-14 Thread Starter
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Aye, cheers Pud.. some good advice.

I'll see what's under the covers when I dismantle it. If it's minor, then I'd repair the engine.. if it looks like an air disaster, it'll probably be an engine transplant that's easiest.

CF1 engines are rare and 1.8s appear to be rarer still... If I find a good 2.0 ltr, I'll have to make sure it comes with a key and code box (some of the breakers I've seen might suggest this is a very long shot.. )

If I can only find a CF2, then it's reassuring that it'll work (once I've taken the CF2 bits off it and fitted my CF1 bits). Again, CF2 in 1.8 flavour are still rather rare... loads of 1.6s around at the moment (funny that! )

I *suspect* I'll be fixing my old donkey.. but let's see.

Meanwhile might have to scratch around for a car to drive around in while I'm fixing Blue. The Younger Mrs S. is worried... all my projects start as cars I'm "just driving around in" while I fix my car. Blue was just to drive around in while I fixed my 155. Now I've forgotten which is my car and which is the one I'm just driving around in while I fix it..


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BTW, don't try and use a 1.8 CF3. The block is shorter than the 1.8 CF1/CF2 block and you'll have all sorts of difficulties with brackets, mounts etc. You could use a 2.0 CF3 engine, to all intents & purposes its no different to a 2.0 CF2 except you'd have to either drill & tap the head to mount your secondary coolant temp sensor or mount it somewhere else (I've seen it installed in the thermostat -> heater matrix pipe before).
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This would get you about for a while:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321501761511

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(Post Link) post #9 of 16 Old 18-09-14 Thread Starter
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Is Laurence from Auto Lusso on this forum?

I'm interested in case I need to go the new head route in:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1610440488...84.m1423.l2649


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21 000 miles is too low...
how old was the belt? how old and howmany miles had the water pump?
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just catched your other thread. water pump was 57 000 miles... but how old?
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(Post Link) post #13 of 16 Old 19-09-14 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfizta View Post
just catched your other thread. water pump was 57 000 miles... but how old?
Water pump went on at the previous cam-belt service... in May 2011.

The belt, pulley and tensioner (of the same date) were in there for 36,000 miles. The new replacements have managed 21,000 miles before the break-down.

The water pump is a Bugatti I got from Shop4Parts. I like to be doubtful that it caused the problem.. it's not a shonky part... but I did notice/not really paying attention that the coolant level dropped a touch more than usual in the week or two before the break-down.. and occasionally the car would run at 88C.. even in mild running, whereas it would normally sit on 86C.

It could be the belt was loose and not spinning the pump properly (it's driven by the smooth side of the belt) and the tiny bit extra coolant loss might just be coincidence...

I'll have a look this weekend and see if I can work out what went wrong.. I hope the tensioner bolt just didn't come loose.. that'd make this all my fault..

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I have a works trip next week.. (Right now??? Zzzz! ) so I didn't want to dismantle too much and leave it all in bits.. but I removed the cam-belt cover and sifted through the wreckage.

The culprit is definitely the water pump - without question beyond all shadow of doubt.

The tensioner is still tensioning and spins freely, the belt pulley is immaculate and spins freely.. actually both these still have that "new" bit of stiction in their bearings.. they don't "whizz" round like old bearings... but the water pump pulley can be rocked backwards and forwards almost 1cm out of it's axis.

What looked like it happened is that the pump bearings (?) collapsed allowing the pulley to rock in and out... This eased the belt off the pulley slightly so that it was only prevented from coming off when it touched the cam-belt cover.

Eventually the belt wore through the cover and this allowed the belt to poke out and then jam.

The belt itself, despite being shredded to half its usual width, was still driving all the pulleys and still hanging on it there till the end. Can't fault the belt or the tensioner or pulley.

Water pump is a Bugatti job, bought from Shop4parts in May 2011... and managed 57,000 miles (36k of its first cam-belt plus 21k of its second). I didn't remove it yet to look at the internals (it uses 6mm hex bolts and that key has gone AWOL from my tool kit.. ) but it still spins freely and makes no noises.. just the pulley rocks about on the shaft. No other sign of any issues (leaks or shards of metal).

I'll only be able to take the head off in 3 weeks time (cheers boss!) so crossing my fingers for just mild carnage until then..



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My 2nd water pump went in about 42K ... the original lasted over 120K! ...

Not sure of the make as it was binned at the last belt change. That too had worn and the bearings shot. Luckily the guys at AutoLusso spotted it so a new one went in. Touch wood, so far so good and I'm about due for another belt change ...

I'm wondering if the belt is over-tensioned the pump suffers first.
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(Post Link) post #16 of 16 Old 24-09-14 Thread Starter
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Yes.. that's the only thing I can think of that might have made the water pump fail... I'll have to check the tensioner position to see if it's over-tight.. but on the other hand, how much extra pressure can a bit of over tightening actually exert? The pump should be able to cope with a bit extra stress, if the belt and plastic pulleys can? I dunno..

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