Rough Sounding TS. - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 35 Old 16-06-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Rough Sounding TS.

Just wanted some ideas and suggestions on this...
I purchased a rather neglected 147 last week to fix up.
It has apparently been standing for 6 months, I've gotten it running but it sounds like a diesel under load, I know its definitely not the variator.
It starts up and sounds like a perfectly normal TS until you rev it, its also quiet if you rev it gently.
The noise sounds like its coming from the center of the inlet camshaft.
I checked (and corrected) the timing and I noticed that the threads for the cam caps, were you place the cam locks were stripped, I can only tighten 1 bolt in each cap... I thought this might be the issue, what do you guys think ?

I'm guessing it could also be a noisy lifter or two but not sure yet.
I thought of doing an engine flush before changing the oil but this might do more damage

Any advice is welcome

Keeps Rolling in his Alfa
keepRolling is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
(Post Link) post #2 of 35 Old 17-06-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Anyone ?
keepRolling is offline  
Status: V6 Inside
AO Silver Member
 
ransoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 4,881
I would change the oil before doing anything else. Don't worry about an engine flush.
ransoman is offline  
Status: on my bike
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ireland
County: Galway
Posts: 1,734

Member car:

147 1.6TS

It's not a hole in the exhaust is it .
brave soul is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
scottyf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 5,225

Member car:

Alfa 166

Possbily badly timed with means the valve openings are to long. This make the engine sound very rough. But you'd have a bad idel if thats the case.
Bearing caps won't be helping either.
scottyf is offline  
(Post Link) post #6 of 35 Old 17-06-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
It's definitely not the exhaust and the timing is spot on now... The oil is in serious need of a change, so my plan was to fix the stripped threads with heli coils, change the oil and see how it goes.

I just get the idea that it might take more than an oil change, judging by how bad it sounds... It's definitely top end, did a compression test and got very good results so it's probably nothing serious.
keepRolling is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
scottyf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 5,225

Member car:

Alfa 166

What are the compression results?
Should be around the 170 psi mark.
scottyf is offline  
Status: zzzzzzzz
AO Platinum Member
 
symon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Oxfordshire
Posts: 37,013
Worn big end bearing allowing the piston to touch the cylinder head..

Most likely Cylinder 3 due to the heat from the exhaust below it.

TS engines and neglect don't go together very well.
symon is offline  
(Post Link) post #9 of 35 Old 17-06-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyf View Post
What are the compression results?
Should be around the 170 psi mark.
I'll come back to you on that... I measured in KP/cm and not sure how to covert yet I got between 8.5 KP/cm and 9 KP/cm

Quote:
Originally Posted by symon View Post
Worn big end bearing allowing the piston to touch the cylinder head..

Most likely Cylinder 3 due to the heat from the exhaust below it.

TS engines and neglect don't go together very well.
Hello symon
You bring me such nice news
Do you think this definitely the issue or just a worst case scenario ?
The previous owner did mention that a pipe burst and the car over-heated, the head was re-engineered etc. So I'm guessing your suggestion is probably the correct one, I just assumed the bottom end was fine because there were no unusual sounds or knocks down below but a worn big end makes perfect sense.
keepRolling is offline  
Status: zzzzzzzz
AO Platinum Member
 
symon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Oxfordshire
Posts: 37,013
It is a worse case scenario, and I am hoping that it isn't the case...

The trouble is big end failure on TS engines is all too common especially when run low on oil, or if it has had a cambelt snap.


I would get the oil changed and see what happens. If it is the big end then I would expect the noises to get worse rapidly.

Also double check the auxillary belt tensioners, they can make some strange noises when they are worn, and it is often difficult to tell exactly where a noise is coming from.
symon is offline  
(Post Link) post #11 of 35 Old 17-06-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Hmmm ok, I'll start with the simplest and cheapest and work from there untill I find the solution.
Thanx
keepRolling is offline  
(Post Link) post #12 of 35 Old 01-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
So it seems the bottom end has a knock and that means I'll be replacing the big ends, I just have a slight dilemma... The car also needs a new head gasket and the clutch is on its way out. I could do everything in situ but it makes more sense to drop the engine and gearbox out and attend to all 3 problems in one go. problem is I have a slight lack of equipment, no lift, no engine crane and no engine stand.
Should still remove the engine from the car and make do with what I have or lose some skin and do everything with the engine in place ?
keepRolling is offline  
Status: zzzzzzzz
AO Platinum Member
 
symon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Oxfordshire
Posts: 37,013
The easiest way to do it would be the drop the engine from underneath.

If you can get the car onto ramps and lower the engine and gearbox with a couple of trolley jacks.

Getting it back in might be a bit more tricky but it can be done.
symon is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 35 Old 01-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Was thinking of something similar... Either way, definatly sounds better than doing it all in the car.
keepRolling is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
scottyf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 5,225

Member car:

Alfa 166

You can rent a crane / lift. I took it out the top. Seemed to be easier. Although everyone said it was easier underneath.

To be honest it isnt difficult just time consuming. If you get the right lift you can easily clear the bonnet. I never used an engine jack either. Just the crane I rented. Again another reason for going over the top.
scottyf is offline  
(Post Link) post #16 of 35 Old 09-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
I had a look at the cost of an engine crane and they're cheaper than what I imagined, so I'll most likely be buying my own engine crane and an engine holder for future jobs since I'm starting my own business up, It'll be an investment.

I did consider taking it out the top... Did anything get in the way? I usually remove them out the bottom so never tried out the top.
keepRolling is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
scottyf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 5,225

Member car:

Alfa 166

Nope straight pull out the top.
Just do it slowly to make sure youve disconnected everything.
scottyf is offline  
(Post Link) post #18 of 35 Old 15-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Since you said "out the top" the last time, I've given it some thought and had a look... It actually seems like an easier option, I can't understand why taking the engine out the bottom its a more commonly used meathod
keepRolling is offline  
Status: playing kill by numbers
AO Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belgium
County: Down in the Park
Posts: 8,786
because the car is on a 2 post ramp, and it's easier to move the body of the car up after you've studded the engine and box on a table or crate.

besides that, take it out the top
Cuore_Sportivo_155 is offline  
(Post Link) post #20 of 35 Old 16-07-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
That makes sense...
When you work with a car lift its obviously more sensible lifting the car away from the engine but when you have no lift, it just seems silly out the top

Will defiantly take it out the top since I don't have a ramp yet...
keepRolling is offline  
(Post Link) post #21 of 35 Old 23-09-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
Finally got the engine out and apart, found a worn big end bearing on cylinder no.4
19092013739.jpg
The journal still looks okay, I still get similar measurements between each big end journal.
19092013740.jpg
I also found that cylinder no.3 has a broken piston and all the oil rings are worn, 2 and 3 being the worst... At least I know where all the smoke was coming from now
19092013735.jpg19092013736.jpg
keepRolling is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
scottyf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 5,225

Member car:

Alfa 166

Jesus thats pretty bad.
If you need a set of Pistons you can have the oens out my old 1.6 (Providing it is a 1.6) for postage costs.
scottyf is offline  
Status: OEM++
AO Silver Member
 
Egon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 2,040

Member car:

147ts plus bits

Piston broke. (Get it?)

I'll get my coat...
Egon is offline  
(Post Link) post #24 of 35 Old 23-09-13 Thread Starter
Status: Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili
AO Member
 
keepRolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: South Africa
County: Gauteng
Posts: 975
It's a 2.0l but thanx for the offer anyways
The broken piston seems to be old damage that was "swept under the mat" because I didn't find the broken piece and there's no damage to the head, however there is a slight dent on the piston.

As for the bearing shells, 1,2 & 3 look perfectly normal, only 4 is worn however I noticed slight "bruising" on some of the shells, thinking this may be evidence of a previous belt failure...
keepRolling is offline  
Status: AROC 916 Registrar
AO Gold Member
 
Mitch916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 8,916
Good news the crank looks ok.

New set of shells, rings and a new piston, jobs a good 'un

(Hone the bores as well )
Mitch916 is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Engines (TS, JTS, JTD & V6)

Tags
rough , sounding

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome