Is 1.3JTD block the same as 1.9JTD - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 23 Old 14-04-13 Thread Starter
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Is 1.3JTD block the same as 1.9JTD

Hello,

Obviously not the CC but would the 1.3JTD engine bolt onto a 1.9JTD gearbox and vice versa? Are they the same basic block or is the 1.3 based on a different block?

Many Thanks
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different block.

the 1.3 has a cam chain, the 1.6 and 1.9 (same block) have a cambelt.

that doesn't mean the gearbox bolt pattern is different though, wouldn't know about that
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(Post Link) post #3 of 23 Old 15-04-13 Thread Starter
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Many thanks.

In that case does anyone know where I might be able to look at a 1.3 block, out of the car, to see if it fits the bellhousing I have please? Ideally Essex or London.

Incidentally the block to bellhousing pattern of the 1.9JTD is the same as the old Fiat RWD, Lancia Integrale, Fiat Coupe etc. I'm planning on changing my lovely tuned but uneconomical Fiat/Lancia engine in my Morris Minor to something more economical than 25mpg. And being a bit extreme, I'm going to aim for extreme mpg in my old age

Last edited by madmog; 15-04-13 at 21:24. Reason: Thought of something else to say.
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also the same as alfa v6...

I fear the 1.3 might have the bolt pattern of the twinspark being the smallest of the diesels...
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Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
also the same as alfa v6...

I fear the 1.3 might have the bolt pattern of the twinspark being the smallest of the diesels...
Hmm, the Alfa V6 I tried was different but I don't know if that was the GM or older Alfa. Interesting
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the older v6 as far as I know shares it's bell housing with the JTD, newer v6 engines (GM) use GM boxes
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(Post Link) post #7 of 23 Old 21-04-13 Thread Starter
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A subjective question I know but how 'good' was the older V6, how expensive to tune, how simple to maintain and how many mpg? On all but the mpg does the older V6 beat the 1.9 diesel. (I'm leaving the Alfa sound to one side, I know a diesel will never sound the same.

I know that the 1.9tdi will have more bhp and torque than my slightly modified Fiat T/C and be much better for mpg but I'm concerned about all the computer sensors. Old school is just fuel and ignition to check. TDI is I don't know how many sensors.

Actually is there something that can be plugged in that will pick up all sensor failures? Do you keep a bunch of such sensors in the toolbox in case of breakdown? (I keep a spare coilpack, leads and ignition module

Thanks.
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no spares are kept, the sensors are not consumables and rarely fail. coilpacks (coil on plug for 24v) are the first to go, and occasionally a TDC-sensor though that fails gradually most of the time.

To be honest, a 2.4 or 1.9 jtd can be gotten to the same power level as a v6, but you'd need to learn how to map it or pay someone to do it for you... same for a v6 if you get one with injection...

Make sure to double check the bolt pattern on the gearboxes before commiting either way though!

how much room in a morris minor engine bay?
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(Post Link) post #9 of 23 Old 21-04-13 Thread Starter
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Thanks Cuore_Sportivo_155

To answer your question, the Morris Minor engine bay is very wide but short back to front. There is a structural front member that would stop many 4 cylinders from fitting without cutting into the front member and strengthening.

The Fiat/Alfa diesel block is the almost the same dimensionally as the old Fiat 131, Fiat coupe, Lancia Integrale; short from end to end. I noticed that the Alfa has something poking backwards from the head - I guess it's a variable cam device. I might need to cut into the non-structural part of the bulkhead slightly but perhaps not as that area was originally recessed for the battery.

The 5 cylinder is also the same pattern but unfortunately there isn't enough room back to front.

They kind person at Autolusso who let me check my bellhousing against their stack of engines warned me to stay away from the post 2005 16 valve cars because I think of the complicated electronics.

I would buy a write-off with ok engine and Ebay off the stuff I don't need and am not overly worried about complicated electronics but am concerned about a computer refusing to let the engine start because of some oddball sensor.

I've lurked on this forum a while so learned about the EGR and how to disable. Being 1967 a lot of the emissions stuff wouldn't be required but if it's robust I'd leave in place.

Being middle-aged, I'm even tempted by that 90bhp 86mpg 1.3 engine (Mito?). In a light car with low ratio diff perhaps I'd get it up to 100mpg. Well 100mph was conquered in this car some time ago and most shopping cars do 95-105mph anyway. 100mph, 100mpg on used vegetable oil might be pushing things though...

Image of empty engine bay

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...enginebay1.jpg

With Lancia engine (same a Fiat 131 T/C 8 valve more or less)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...ictures/e1.jpg

Build thread on Retro Rides

Retro Rides - 1967 Morris Minor
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the protruding part on the gearbox end is likely the vacuum pump, that's cam driven and needed to supply vacuum for some valves (turbo pressure regulator and EGR) and assisted brakes if you have them fitted.

I'd get a complete car (written off possibly) if you want to get things working... you'd need the keys, ignition barrel with the antenna to read the key chip, ecu, all the sensors and a fuel pump which is also found on the car if you get a complete one. Newer cars are likely to want information from the ABS-system aswell, the older ones don't. If you get a car with a speedo-sensor in the gearbox you are sure that won't be a problem. The bad news is that this would be at best the 145/6, anything newer is definitely communicating with the ABS ecu.

I'd be looking for a V6 engine though, with an engine bay like that... but that won't help in your quest for more MPG...
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(Post Link) post #11 of 23 Old 21-04-13 Thread Starter
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Are there any particular places to source damaged complete cars?

Also, I'm curious what type of information the ECU reads from the ABS system and what it does with it. I'm wondering whether knocking up a signal generator that mimics whatever the ECU expects might keep it happy.

If it just lit a warning light I wouldn't care, if it shuts off the engine somehow, perhaps that shut-off could be bypassed but if it does something variable to fuel pressure or injectors that could get awkward to replicate.

Hmm I'll start researching Alfa ecus now.

Presumably the ECU isn't re-programmable.
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ecu's are reprogrammable, but it's a steep learning curve... to remove error reports is a multitude harder than to change engine characteristics.

ask your insurance company who they deal with maybe?

ABS supplies the engine with road speed information, and in the case of vdc/asr equipped cars it requests to cut power when the tyres are slipping etc...

Some cars won't start if the ABS ecu isn't recognising the key transponder, not sure if this applies to alfas but it does to pug 308...
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Thanks Cuore_Sportivo_155

To answer your question, the Morris Minor engine bay is very wide but short back to front. There is a structural front member that would stop many 4 cylinders from fitting without cutting into the front member and strengthening.

The Fiat/Alfa diesel block is the almost the same dimensionally as the old Fiat 131, Fiat coupe, Lancia Integrale; short from end to end. I noticed that the Alfa has something poking backwards from the head - I guess it's a variable cam device. I might need to cut into the non-structural part of the bulkhead slightly but perhaps not as that area was originally recessed for the battery.

The 5 cylinder is also the same pattern but unfortunately there isn't enough room back to front.

They kind person at Autolusso who let me check my bellhousing against their stack of engines warned me to stay away from the post 2005 16 valve cars because I think of the complicated electronics.

I would buy a write-off with ok engine and Ebay off the stuff I don't need and am not overly worried about complicated electronics but am concerned about a computer refusing to let the engine start because of some oddball sensor.

I've lurked on this forum a while so learned about the EGR and how to disable. Being 1967 a lot of the emissions stuff wouldn't be required but if it's robust I'd leave in place.

Being middle-aged, I'm even tempted by that 90bhp 86mpg 1.3 engine (Mito?). In a light car with low ratio diff perhaps I'd get it up to 100mpg. Well 100mph was conquered in this car some time ago and most shopping cars do 95-105mph anyway. 100mph, 100mpg on used vegetable oil might be pushing things though...

Image of empty engine bay

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...enginebay1.jpg

With Lancia engine (same a Fiat 131 T/C 8 valve more or less)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...ictures/e1.jpg

Build thread on Retro Rides

Retro Rides - 1967 Morris Minor
nice car

the engine, is it from a lancia beta? delta's onwards had the water pipe coming from the opposite end of the head. yours looks more like the original fiat twin cam one, or as used in the beta.

what spec is the motor?

and is it coming up for sale....
 
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also the same as alfa v6...

I fear the 1.3 might have the bolt pattern of the twinspark being the smallest of the diesels...
interesting....

so from deduction then the lampredi twin cam engine would bolt to the alfa V6 (the alfa engine, not the GM one)?

would be raelly keen to know if it did..

too much to hope that it doesline up though, clutch shaft, spigot bush too etc.....
 
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Hmm, the 1.3 is a complete different block and gearbox I was lead to believe.
They put them in Mito / Fiat punto / Panda and some GM models like Corsa's which you maybe able to pick up cheaply.
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nice car

the engine, is it from a lancia beta? delta's onwards had the water pipe coming from the opposite end of the head. yours looks more like the original fiat twin cam one, or as used in the beta.

what spec is the motor?

and is it coming up for sale....
Thank you KevJTD The engine is from a 1977 Lancia Beta the now rare 4 door thing that looks like a hatchback but isn't ... finds pictures here...

http://www.netcarshow.com/lancia/1975-beta/

I got the whole car in 1987 and it was as rusty as the legends, I could put my hand through both front wings to touch the tyres.

Originally FWD in the Lancia, it uses some Fiat parts to take it off the slant and and bring it upright. Fiat 131 oil pump and Argenta sump, as you picked up the Lancia water rail went from the cam wheels the wrong way along the top of the engine so a Fiat forward facing one is used instead.

Spigot bush added into the crank/flywheel (can't remember which it fits into) cam box drilled to stop oil overflowing from previous slanted configuration.

Spec is 2.0 8 valve, rebuilt by Guy Croft about 8 years ago with triple valve springs. I since added a GC3A fast road camshaft, Megajolt electronic ignition, adjustable cam wheels, 1" cam belt and Yamaha R1 bike carbs. Rolling road tuned at Northampton Motorsport to give 136bhp and 131lbft of torque.

Just to be clear, I only know for certain that this engine's bellhousing matches the 1.9 diesel engine as I tried physically at Autolusso. I don't know if the bolt pattern is the same as the V6. That said from an Alfa FWD point of view, you might get a match either engine to gearbox or bellhousing to gearbox to mix and match engines (assuming gearbox has a separate bellhousing). For me, I can't use the FWD bellhousing but need the match from engine to RWD Fiat 131 bellhousing.

I'm based in Essex if you want to see the engine. I hadn't planned to bring the Minor off the road quite yet but hey come and experience the engine working and make me an offer if you want.

Just thinking, I don't know what you want to use the engine for but it won't pass emissions if put into a car that's supposed to have a catalyic convertor.

If you're not too far I can also bring the bellhousing so you can see if it answers any of your questions. This is it below, correct way up looking in towards gearbox

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did that bellhousing fit a 1.9 jtd? starter motor should be on the other side (intake side on the head)
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did that bellhousing fit a 1.9 jtd? starter motor should be on the other side (intake side on the head)
Yes, starter is on the other side - I think there's room under the Alfa head to make a starter go there but it raises another question as to whether there is a starter with the correct bolt pattern and dog.

Looking at images of the Alfa starter it looks identical to the Fiat but I would imagine it would need more torque to turn over the high compression of the diesel.

I had a quick look at pics of the 1.9jtd where I would try to relocate the starter but it's not clear what's there - looks like a water rail & exhaust. Things that could be re-routed as opposed to a big chunk of engine block
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Thank you KevJTD The engine is from a 1977 Lancia Beta the now rare 4 door thing that looks like a hatchback but isn't ... finds pictures here...

http://www.netcarshow.com/lancia/1975-beta/

I got the whole car in 1987 and it was as rusty as the legends, I could put my hand through both front wings to touch the tyres.

Originally FWD in the Lancia, it uses some Fiat parts to take it off the slant and and bring it upright. Fiat 131 oil pump and Argenta sump, as you picked up the Lancia water rail went from the cam wheels the wrong way along the top of the engine so a Fiat forward facing one is used instead.

Spigot bush added into the crank/flywheel (can't remember which it fits into) cam box drilled to stop oil overflowing from previous slanted configuration.

Spec is 2.0 8 valve, rebuilt by Guy Croft about 8 years ago with triple valve springs. I since added a GC3A fast road camshaft, Megajolt electronic ignition, adjustable cam wheels, 1" cam belt and Yamaha R1 bike carbs. Rolling road tuned at Northampton Motorsport to give 136bhp and 131lbft of torque.

Just to be clear, I only know for certain that this engine's bellhousing matches the 1.9 diesel engine as I tried physically at Autolusso. I don't know if the bolt pattern is the same as the V6. That said from an Alfa FWD point of view, you might get a match either engine to gearbox or bellhousing to gearbox to mix and match engines (assuming gearbox has a separate bellhousing). For me, I can't use the FWD bellhousing but need the match from engine to RWD Fiat 131 bellhousing.

I'm based in Essex if you want to see the engine. I hadn't planned to bring the Minor off the road quite yet but hey come and experience the engine working and make me an offer if you want.

Just thinking, I don't know what you want to use the engine for but it won't pass emissions if put into a car that's supposed to have a catalyic convertor.

If you're not too far I can also bring the bellhousing so you can see if it answers any of your questions. This is it below, correct way up looking in towards gearbox

nice engine spec

got nothing of note to fit it in at the moment, have a beta hpe local to me that can be available should i feel the need.

always handy to have these things though, save them from being lost for years under wrokbenches then thrown away!

guy croft is a pure genious on the twin cam.
i've actually had the pleasure of spending a few hours in his company when he let me use his workshop to set up the cam shims on a dedra turbo head i'd just rebuilt. the guy is a perfectionist to say the least, i've seen dirtier hospitals!
real nice fella too, and makes a decent cup of tea

handy for me he's only about 30 miles away




my enquiries about bellhousings/gearboxes etc is for something madcap i've been thinking of for a while.
 
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Wasnt the 1.3 derived from the fiat 1242cc Fire petrol engines? Maybe the fire petrol boxes fit?
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Just to add to the thread, the 1.9/2.4 JTD engines definitely do NOT use the same bell-housing bolt pattern as the 12v/24v V6 engines. 1.9/2.4 matches the Twinspark/2.0JTS and stuff like Fiat Coupe 20v turbo, I guess the Lampredi based 2.0 16v as well - it would certainly agree with what you're saying about the Lancia twin cam.

I would look for a donor 156 1.9 JTD 16v - it would certainly be an easier job to make this work than using the same engine/box from a 147 or GT. In fact even a 1.9 8v would do the job in that and it is certainly a simpler engine and in a lot of ways it feels nicer too although slower.

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(Post Link) post #22 of 23 Old 22-04-13 Thread Starter
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Thanks Pud237
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As an ex-Mirafiori man (Fiat 131) wasn't there a diesel version of that? - probably not sold in the UK, and an engine would be impossible to find here. There may still be 131 derived taxis running somewhere in the world: there were a lot in Istanbul when I visited a few years ago, but can't recall if they were petrol or diesel.

My 131 started out as one of the late 1600 SOHC models. At around 180,000 miles the engine died, so I put a 2000 DOHC unit of similar vintage in to replace it - made a huge difference -

Last edited by dastocks; 02-05-13 at 14:55.
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