JTD Owners: ever wondered why the intercooler fills with oil? - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 20 Old 18-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Idea JTD Owners: ever wondered why the intercooler fills with oil?

Hello fellow JTD owners,

Whilst my 156 10 valve jtd is in bits ( camshaft sensor issue), I have taken a moment to ponder why there are oil deposits in the turbo hoses. After examining the layout of the crankcase and cam cover breathers something occurred to me; there is a 16mm (approx) pipe which links the crankcase with the cam cover (runs up the rear of the engine, as mounted, transversely). Ok, fine, but the one which runs from the camshaft cover leads directly to a union in the air intake system, supplying the turbo, AFTER the MAF. I believe this is directly responsible for oil deposits in the turbo hoses and intercooler, and, combined with the exhaust feed from the turbo to the EGR is responsible for the sooting problems that so many of us have posted on over the years.

I have an old K&N crankcase breather filter from my MGV8, which I propose to fit to the breather pipe running from the camshaft cover, and blank off the intake into the turbo air circuit....unless wiser chaps than me can give me a reason for leaving as is? It surely can't supply the turbo with lubrication. Maybe an oil catch tank would be a better solution.

What do my esteemed fellow forum bashers think?

I await your replys with positively moist anticipation

Cheerio
The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
(Post Link) post #2 of 20 Old 18-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Er, bump! C'mon chaps! 20 or so folks with nowt to say?!! Where's Pud/ Dan when you need him!! Cuore sportivo, I bow to your knowledge/ experience - you must have a suggestion! Hollowpoint, lend me your ear!

The farce is strong in this one, but I am no Jedi yet!!

Cheerio
The captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
gammakeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: United Kingdom
County: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 822

Member car:

156 JTD 2.4 20V

All turbo cars tend to blow oil from the turbo into the induction system. A small amount of oil escapes from the bearing when they are running. I assume its not possible to use the normal style of oil seal as the turbine spins so fast. As the bearing wears the oil loss gets worse.

Keith
gammakeith is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,807
What Keith said - it doesn't all come from the camcover breather. Some will do though, so fitting a catch tank would help. But also you have to bear in mind that breather is currently getting vacuumed by the turbo, a catch tank will mean that the excess pressure in the camcover will need to find its own way out, so perhaps the breather system may not function quite so well as it intended to. I haven't tried this on my JTD yet but I'd like to, I would hope to install a baffled catch tank and then route this back into the air intake pre-turbo, so the breather system is still vacuumed but the oil is caught.

Autolusso Penrith - UK's leading independent Alfa Romeo specialist with branches in Bedfordshire, Cumbria & Dorset

Wizard Exhaust systems available here

Tel: 01768 879 171
Pud237 is online now  
(Post Link) post #5 of 20 Old 19-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Hello gammakeith and Pud,

Thanks for replying gentleman, much appreciated. I do like the catch tank idea Dan, since, as you say, it keeps the removal of excess crankcase pressure as Alfa intended. Will investigate further, unless you recommend a particular catch tank? Maybe Demon tweaks or similar have a suitable off the shelf tank? Ohh I do like this mild modding lark! Also; Dan have you ever come across a cam sensor that was duff out of the box? And does the 10 valve intake manifold suffer from the same swirl valve issues that other guys have posted re 1.9 jtds? Thought I read a post that said 10 valve doesn't have these valves....but can't seem to locate it again - hope it wasn't wishful thinking, since planning to remove, clean and hot dip my manifold. Or should I bin it and find a new one?

All replys welcome!

Regards

The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,807
No swirl valves in the 10v inlet manifold. Its solid metal, never seen one cracked or holed either. Probably a waste of time in all honesty but at least you'll be able to clean out all the crap and also clean up the inlet ports on the cylinder head. I don't think it is the cure to your problem, but if you have time and enjoy the work then crack on

Never had many JTD cam sensors fail at all to be honest, on the 10v anyway. You could get a duff one out of the box, its not impossible. You could also have the wrong sensor in the box too. Is the exhaust cam pulley undamaged?
Pud237 is online now  
(Post Link) post #7 of 20 Old 19-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

There seems to be no damage to the cam pulley, a little bit of surface corrosion , but have ordered a new one, just to be sure. And have a new Bosch cam sensor also( does part no 0281 002 213 sound correct to you?)Appreciate the muck in the inlet manny is not cause of the cam sensor issue, but surely cleaning it out can only be a good thing? Wouldn't just cleaning improve the flow rates, etc - and lessen chances of injesting said cack into the cylinders? I have a spare recon fuel pump which I thought could go on, since she is all stripped back anyway. Hopefully will get to check timing is correct today, local Stealer fitted it (I know, I know, long story) so assuming nothing is correct. Fleabay have some very reasonably priced oil catch tanks so may take a punt on one of those, and have removed Egr and cooler, so now have somewhere to mount it. Little bit wary of cleaning inlets with head still fitted - can you recommend a method?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, since all I've bought from you thus far are your gearbox bushes!!!! But I'm sure that will change....!

Regards
The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,807
When you took the EGR cooler off, what did you do with the coolant pipe from the stat to the EGR cooler and from the EGR cooler to the oil heat exchanger? Did you just loop these together or did you block it off somehow? I was thinking about adapting a 2.0 TS thermostat to fit as I need a new one anyway, they are much cheaper and I've also removed the EGR at the exhaust manifold so the cooler is redundant.
Pud237 is online now  
(Post Link) post #9 of 20 Old 19-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Looped together, using a length of 16 mm heater hose, and a brass connector from...B&Q!!!! Pack of 2 = 4.99, with beaded ends. Fits perfect, with no kinks! Wouldn't the 2.0 TS 'stat be missing the connection for the heater matrix? Just thinking aloud (ooh, hear those cogs grinding...!) thought about blanking, but the original feed to the front of the egr cooler comes from a pipe underneath the exhaust manny, so the simplest choice was to ditto the feed straight to the stat. Also keeps approx amount of coolant same. Any hoo, that's how I did it. Was I right on cam sensor P/N? Any thoughts on cleaning inlets with head in place?

Cheerio
The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,807
Seems correct according to Bosch online catalogue. Not got one stripped down enough that I can see the p/n at the moment but I'm sure it'll be right. It said all the 10v use the same sensor. Fiat ePer also says p/n is the same for all 2.4 10v. 46481640
Pud237 is online now  
(Post Link) post #11 of 20 Old 19-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Thanks again Dan, you're a lovely chap, I don't care what they say about you!!!

Cheerio
The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 71
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
Posts: 44,807
Err, thanks...
Pud237 is online now  
Status: Paint it black
AO Member
 
INS147's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
County: Highlands
Posts: 551

Member car:

Alfa-less

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainboogaloo View Post
I do like the catch tank idea Dan, since, as you say, it keeps the removal of excess crankcase pressure as Alfa intended. Will investigate further, unless you recommend a particular catch tank? Maybe Demon tweaks or similar have a suitable off the shelf tank?
OK, no guarantees this is exactly what you're after. But, was having a look at a few things on the JS-tuning website and I saw this which might be worth consideration:
JS-Tuning.nl

They have one or two other things I'm interested in, but I remembered this thread and thought this could be the solution you're looking for.
INS147 is offline  
Status: [URL
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wrexham
Posts: 1,758
Looks like mine , if so check you have room in bay for it mine had to go here
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/438...tanksideon.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7...lcatchtank.jpg
I put an extra baffle plate in mine to split dirty and clean plus some smaller loose baffles
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4...mar2011008.jpg
Worked a bit too well when i first started using water methanol
But now run with just large middle baffle
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2...mar2011002.jpg
I dont see anything like that in there now by the way.
And also the center is short of the bottom and drilled with a few holes incase it did ever fill up and block passage of crankase fumes.

Last edited by sussexa; 20-09-12 at 16:59.
sussexa is offline  
(Post Link) post #15 of 20 Old 20-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Hello INS 147 & Sussexa

Excellent posts indeed, many thanks. Oh yes INS147, there are many saucy bits on the js tuning site I would love to get for my Alfa; the massive intercooler kit springs to mind. But afraid I went for a cheaper oil catch tank off eBay: a reasonably priced £24, as far as quality goes...that remains to be seen, as it hasn't arrived yet. Whereabouts in the wonderful Highlands are you? My father's side of the family hail from Grantown on Spey, and I spent many a summer roaring around the roads between Aviemore, Elgin, Kingussie etc in my MGB V8. Ahhh, the great days of cheap(er) petrol! Would need a 2nd mortgage to do that now!!! Sorry, I digress. Back to the post; Sussexa - water/ methanol injection! Now that sounds interesting: please expand! The extra baffles are an excellent idea: what's the point of getting the oil vapour into the tank, only to suck it all the way back in - I was considering putting another filter in the return line to the turbo ( may still add that), but the baffles are a great, easy addition which must at least restrict the oil vapour goo, so will definitely be putting some in the catch tank. Now, do tell me more about your water/ meth system!

Regards to you both

Cheerio

The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: [URL
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wrexham
Posts: 1,758
Thumbs Up

Plenty of info in the tuning section for w/m.
sussexa is offline  
Status: Paint it black
AO Member
 
INS147's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United Kingdom
County: Highlands
Posts: 551

Member car:

Alfa-less

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainboogaloo View Post
Oh yes INS147, there are many saucy bits on the js tuning site I would love to get for my Alfa; the massive intercooler kit springs to mind.
I'm also tempted by one of those kits.... plus the cat delete pipe and..... well, the list goes on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainboogaloo View Post
But afraid I went for a cheaper oil catch tank off eBay: a reasonably priced £24, as far as quality goes...that remains to be seen, as it hasn't arrived yet.
Aye, I've seen one or two kicking around on the bay of e, be interested to see what you end up with
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainboogaloo View Post
Whereabouts in the wonderful Highlands are you? My father's side of the family hail from Grantown on Spey, and I spent many a summer roaring around the roads between Aviemore, Elgin, Kingussie etc in my MGB V8. Ahhh, the great days of cheap(er) petrol! Would need a 2nd mortgage to do that now!!!
I'm near Beauly, not too far from Inverness. Where speed cameras are few and (when the tourists have all gone) the roads are quiet
INS147 is offline  
(Post Link) post #18 of 20 Old 21-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

You lucky chap! A lovely part of the world! Fortunately, down here in the Wild West (otherwise known as Somerset ), we have but a handful of the dreaded yellow/grey flashing money boxes. Unmarked vehicles with her Majesty's constabulary on board are a whole different story, however.....! will update post, once the oil catch tank arrives!

Regards

The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Status: SOLD my 156!
AO Gold Member
 
gazza82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: Buckinghamshire
Posts: 9,093
The crankcase breather pipes to the intake is similar on the TS engines.

One pipe goes to the intake just before the throttle body and another, which is harder to spot, goes to the variable intake body after the throttle. The visible one is used at low speeds and the other at high speed, and this one also has a one-way valve. Simple affair with a spring loaded valve.

If there is a lot of oil vapour from the crankcase, as you get with worn valve stems, the throttle body oils up. And that one-way valve in the breather pipe gets gunky and can stick. This screws the idle speeds as if open it gets more air than it should. They were cheap (£2-£3) a few years back when I changed mine. But they also get brittle so taking them off to clean is a risky task. The small catch on the valve body usually breaks off and it won't stay on the intake.

They are there for emission control ... gone are the days when you simply let all the oily fumes out into the atmosphere so now it gets recirculated into the engine and burnt off as part of the fuel/air mix.

But it does mean we have to keep an eye on our throttle bodies so they don't get gummed up!! And on the TS, this leads to screwed up idle actuator motors as people force the butterfly valve open to clean everything. I take the actuator off the throttle and clean it away from the car where I can open and close it as much as I like without messing something more expensive up.

cheers, Gary

HIS: ex-1998 156 2.0 TSpark with Sport Pack 2, sunroof and hi-level spoiler in Alfa Rosso. V6 intake mod, clear side repeaters and Zeatek undertray. 10th Sep 1998 to 12th Jan 2017

HERS: 2009 MiTo 1.4 95bhp Turismo arrived 21st November in Techno Grey with colour-coded headlight surrounds.

My Alfa156 Web Site - how-to's, piccies, links, useful stuff, etc.
gazza82 is online now  
(Post Link) post #20 of 20 Old 22-09-12 Thread Starter
Status: BOTH Alfa drivable again!Yippee!
AO Member
 
captainboogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Posts: 401

Member car:

156 2.4 jtd x2

Hello Gazza82,

Many thanks for the post, will definitely remember this if/when I ever get around to getting a petrol engined Alfa (i would love a 3.2 V6, but the Captains Good Lady seems to think 2 Alfas and three MGB V8s are quite enough...! i mean, really! Sometimes she's no fun at all...!)but on the JTDs, the ' throttle body' is only really a vacuum controlled shut off valve, to stop the engine running on its own oil if the turbo goes....

My reasonably priced oil catch tank arrived today... And seems remarkably good value (£24 delivered!) fits beautifully where the egr valve previously lived. The pipe supplied with it is a bit pony, but that's an easy fix, and I shall add some internal baffling, and possibly a vapour filter in the return line to the turbo and jobs a good 'un!

Now, just need to take off the inlet manifold, hot dip it, fit the 2nd (!) new cam sensor, cam pulley, recon injectors, recon diesel pump, refit cambelt, new aux belt/ tensioners (once Autolusso's replacement ally casting for the aux tensioner bolt to screw into arrives), fit 2nd new thermostat ( see don't buy Firstline pattern JTD 'stat post!), bleed new clutch slave, put her all back together again and she'll be good for another 150,000 miles! So! All done by lunch tomorrow ! Er, maybe not! Now thinking about replacing brake calipers/ discs and pads too...in for a penny.....hells bells, will it ever end. Oh yes, forgot about the long promised remap - I suppose it won't! Rebuild my beloved Alfa? At this rate it would have been cheaper to buy the blooming company!! and ... Why don't my new engine mounts fit ? Argh!!

Many thanks for the post

Cheerio

The Captain
captainboogaloo is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Engines (TS, JTS, JTD & V6)

Tags
deposits , fills , hoses , intercooler , jtd , oil , owners , turbo , wondered

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
16 important OIL questions and answers oilman Alfa 147, 156 & GT 339 03-06-18 10:39

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome