Sump Drain Hole Thread Mashed Up! 2.0TS 156 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Sump Drain Hole Thread Mashed Up! 2.0TS 156

Never Assume that the Easiest of Jobs will be Easy!!!!!

Last weekend i changed the oil again to something decent having run last 2 weeks on cheap oil to properly wash out the engine flush i did prior to that. [always do this on a newly acquired motor]
On the refitting of the plug it wouldnt even start to tighten up, being an alloy sump i didnt do it up tight on the previous oil change knowing it was only going to be very short term! The thread on the plug is great, must have been changed a couple of years ago but looking at the state of the thread in the sump my heart sank and the tool in my hand went flying across the garage. A cup of tea and a cigarette later i had calmed down a bit and proceeded to try and find a plug or bolt with similar but slightly larger diameter and a tap. Found a tapered plug in a series 2 Lard Rover gearbox and proceeded to re-tap and fit with a bit of PTFE. Did it up as tight as i dare [still not really all that tight] filled up with oil and took it for a spin, seemed OK.
2 days of driving to work revealed a fair amount oil leaking from plug. Have been keeping an eye on it since, have been wondering what the solution should be and what others have done!
Spent alot on car already getting it up to scratch, didnt foresee this aswell money is tight since i bought an Alfa
Idea 1 - Helicoil, 2 - Second hand sump [one at Autolusso about 80 Quid], 3 - find local Ally welder and add plate for thickness, drill and re-tap the hole.
Also, i know i like to rabbit on a bit but, cant seem to find a gasket anywhere, do they actually have one?
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Wurth timesert. Easy and permanent. Lots of engineering shops and garages use them. Brilliant!
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Cheap fix is to get a gearbox plug from a dealer. They're tapered so will tighten and bite into the sump and you won't need a gasket/washer. I did wind a bit of plumbers PTFE tape around just in case. Not a drip (oil not me :-) )
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Timeserts are good, we use them.

There is no sump gasket, it's just sealed with silicone.
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[Hehehe, i typed 'Lard Rover' earlier - i may use this from now on. ]

Timesert do look good, looking at prices though the kits are bloody expensive and i dont think i will find anyone around here that will have the right size thread cutters and seat cutters etc to do it! it would be my prefered route - no removal of sump, instant and alot harder than another alloy thread. Hmmmm, gonna have to do some phoning around. Thanks for the pointer
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Thanks for all the replies guys. Will post results after some phoning tomorrow. If its gets expensive i might aswell get second hand sump from AutoLusso. Until that thread goes too i do like my oil changes... i may have to do it next weekend anyway, so this weekend means new upperwishbones and some other fluid changes [and i dont mean going to the pub]
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Why not email wurth and ask who they supply locally?
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(Post Link) post #8 of 26 Old 17-08-12 Thread Starter
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Not a bad idea that, have just done it tnx.
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I have a spare sump i was keeping for this type of event on the 4 twin sparks i currently look after, i haven't cleaned it but the thread is good on it if you were interested i'd part ex yours (providing it only the thread that damaged) and some cash. PM me.
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Thanks guys, and Biffa - before reading this i just purchased a used sump from Autolusso and a tube of Hylomar Uni Blue. Should have looked on here first.
Still, complete peace of mind and will know there is zero sludge in the engine
Dont know what i will do with old sump, i may get an insert for it fix it and sell it or sell it as is.
Did read that link previously too, i have to agree that a fine thread in aluminium is really not suitable and is very prone over many bolt tightenings to wear / shear a thread. Silly little things about manufacturing costs etc, but i prob would have designed it with a much harder material / insert from the start. But i suppose if cars were manufactured perfect to begin with all the old cars would still be on the road, no one would buy new and the manufacturers would go bankrupt. Like if someone made a tyre that lasted forever the tyre industry would die!
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and found an airbox with v6 pipe on it so i can ditch the resonator
my airbox's bolts have snapped and does not seal anymore. was gonna do it the v6 pipe mod at some point too but used box with v6 pipe on ebay at 15 quid i had to have it. Im gonna have a full weekend next week, better get the important stuff done first i suppose.
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Make sure you have the long ribe bit to get at the sump bolts at the gear box joint.
Have a look at this post it has a good little sump fitting tip and the rest of the thread has loads of pics too.
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/motor...ml#post4426690
Also when removing the sump whilst the engine is in the car the oil pic up will the to be loosened.
You need to remove one bolt completely and the other loosened, whilst refitting the sump make sure the pic up gasket doesnt move and block the pic up hole i have seen this in engines before. There may even be a pic of it some where, it also important to not apply to much sealant.
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top tip with the oil pickup pipe, something easily overlooked - cheers
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Helicoil kit is the best permanent fix. These sumps are like butter which I found out when first doing exactly the same as you on my first twinny.

Bought a helicoil kit which comes with a tapping tool and insert, 20 mins later. Job done.

Paid around £10 for it if I remember.
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hi, just a thought but once you have helicoiled or threadcerted perhaps invest in a pela pump, to remove your oil through the dipstick hole, they are used for boats and bikes I like to change my oil every 6K but was worried about the week thread on the sump plug and have been using one for the last year or so cost £35 over internet, doesnt appeal to everyone but many new cars are serviced like this (Mercedes).
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(Post Link) post #17 of 26 Old 21-08-12 Thread Starter
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true enough, although im not really keen on the idea myself. i feel a sump plug is pretty munch the lowest point in the engine and when you take it out all the sediment and stuff you dont want in there empties out first. i could be very wrong just seems like sucking it out will leave nasty stuff behind. but i guess manufacturers wouldnt do it unless its been tried and tested. i always ask my father [life long engineer] for his opinion when confronted with an engineering nightmare. [not that i always take his advice ] he said weld the hole up and suck it out too!

anyway, secondhand sump from Autolusso was on the doorstep when i got home. on inspection i decided it needs a bloody good clean to inspect it! and it looks like its just had an insert put in. like a time-sert style one - still swarf in the sump!!! Also, has anyone else that has seen the inside of a TS sump noticed long marks that look like cracks? its hard to really tell until i clean it... they are more than likely to be casting marks but im not taking my sump off till i know for sure!!!

Can anyone recommend a way to clean an Ally sump??? Soak in bi-carb over night?
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Sounds like casting marks to me...
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Update:

Sump from Autolusso is good, gave it a clean up in the sink [other people in house not so happy ]
just casting marks, there is a tophat/timecert installed in it. Actually glad now it has the insert as i wont have to worry about it happening again. and the sump was delivered in good time.
+1 to Autolusso.

yesterday i tried to remove the sump, had trouble getting the manifold off and now left with 2 studs on rear cat that are no use [will prob have to drill out and new bolts in]
i am going to need a long ribe bit for the two smaller bolts by the gearbox, its bloody tight in there and couldnt get them out with anything in the workshop! hope somewhere is going to be open tomorrow being a bank holiday so i can use the car for work

anyway, had time to do the upper wishbones - easy job. and a relief after stressing about the sump lol. and did the v6 intake mod with the new airbox i got yesterday.

f what the s bloody Ally sumps!
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Just caught the update to this - sorry the sump wasn't clean, we do normally give them 20 minutes in the hot wash and they come out like new, but we've had some probems with it in the last couple of weeks and its only been working intermittently. I remember this order, it was the last TS suump we sold before we took them off ebay, we had to pull that one straight off an engine as we'd ran out on the shelf. Whichever one of our guys dealt with your order must have decided the threads didn't look too great and got a technician to fit a Timesert in it.

Anyway - best of luck with the removal job, its not very pleasant if you don't have a ramp. One word of advice when you've put the new one on, I would probably leave off the 4 captive studs and the ally brace that goes underneath the exhaust front pipe, as we see a lot of these with impact damage and a cracked sump as a result, it seems the shock is transmitted into the sump when these touch down on speedbumps.

Autolusso Penrith - UK's leading independent Alfa Romeo specialist with branches in Bedfordshire, Cumbria & Dorset

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No probs with the cleanliness it was satisfying! would you want to purchase my old sump when i finally manage its removal it seems in really good condition apart from the obvious drain plug thread. i dont have the tools for it obviously so i would sell it eventually. giving you first refusal [in store credit, as it were?][i need belts soon].

Also, i cant picture what you mean with the captive studs and brace. maybe they were already missing and thats why i cant think of it. there is alot of missing bit on the car. i try not to look too hard when under it now. its dishartening, the satisfaction with a job i just done is almost always pushed aside by another problem i just spotted :cries:
like earlier - from underneath the car doing the sump bolts gearbox end i look up and see a short black tube/brace with big nuts on it, well, one. thats the problem. its flopping around and i cant find a large nut that size with that fine thread. i havnt really triedthat had yet to find one cuz of other probs in hand. oh look, that brake pipes corroded too......

Its turning into a love/hate relationship with the car! a bit like my ex
I may even get another mk2 escort and turn it into a road warrior, hard to break, simple, cheap, easy and quick to fix. none of this fancy electronics doo-dah pants and the like
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just seen some pics of a frontpipe and ally bracket bolted to a sump! guess mine were already gone. no problem then
i can see what you mean about it being low down and ready to kill the sump on a speed bump. good call removing it anyways...
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Best that bracket is not there really. If you want to send the old sump back to us, I'd be happy to give you some credit for future parts so long as it only needs Timeserting. Give me a ring on Tuesday and we can sort something out
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Sweet, nice one
if i manage to get it off tomorrow that is...
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update:

Job jobbed! Finished with time for a drive before a late dinner. found someone with the tool needed on a bank holiday monday - lucky.
people were not kidding when they said it is a pain in the backside to remove and refit the sump, eventually found it easier after alot if fiddling and bit of thinking.

i found i needed to remove the rear bolt that holds the oil pick-up pipe and loosen the other one, the pick-up pipe will then let the sump swing more and voila! off it came. i used the same technique when refitting, front bolt in with oil pipe gasket in place so that the pick-up pie moves slightly.
Also there is a really annoying tiny bolt that holds the gearbox/sump plate on - that was all that was stopping it from sliding on up in there.

the sump i removed turned out to be cleaner than one i replaced it with and i had cleaned it before hand - i guess the Wynn's engine flush i used last months had done its job then - zero sludge in engine. i eneded up re-using my oil seeing as it has only been in for 3 weeks and is really clean [and expensive]

when inspecting the pick-up pipe there was lots of sealant strands stuck in the gause - too much sealant in previous re-fitting of sump by unknown previous mech. i used a smear of hylomar blue - the minimum i felt happy with. getting the old sealant off the block flat on your back and no blood in your arms is fun and keeping oil away from the bit you just put sealant on too, dont want that killing your new seal!!!

test drive makes it all worth it - new upper wishbones feel sooo much better, v6 intake mod sounds nicer and safe in the knowledge my sump plug is not going to fall out at any moment...

now im going to get paranoid about the belts and pullys/tensioners instead

Thanks everyone for your help and pointers - appreciated.
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