Giulietta - Learning from the Dodge Dart forums - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 37 Old 14-04-19 Thread Starter
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Giulietta - Learning from the Dodge Dart forums

I've been thinking about this. The Dodge Dart (.org) forums are very active, and the community has tons of mods (CDV delete, lightweight flywheel, 4C/1750 coils and so on). The Dart itself is based on a modified G platform, and many have the 1.4 MultiAir in combination with the C635 gearbox in either manual or DCT. From reading on the forums there I've found that:
- the coils suck and wear out quickly
- the clutch sucks, and the clutch delay valve delete kit they've got makes the clutch so much better
- they have tons of upgrade mods in the US that are unheard of here
- the clutch slave and master cylinder tend to go
... and a ton more stuff.

I've been in contact with the makers of the clutch delay valve delete kit and while they can't promise it'll fit, they seemed optimistic and interested in me trying it on the Giulietta (same engine and gearbox, and the parts look identical so should fit). So I ordered it. It's on the way as I write this. I'm 90% sure it'll fit, but still a bit anxious about how it'll play out. Best case scenario - it's all I've hoped for. Worst case I'm out 60$ in shipping.



Anyone else been reading the Dart forums?
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Sounds like a lot more transmission problems than in Europe?
Theyíre not used to stickshift?
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(Post Link) post #3 of 37 Old 14-04-19 Thread Starter
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Sounds like a lot more transmission problems than in Europe?
Theyíre not used to stickshift?
That was my first thought too, and given that the vast majority of cars are auto's in the US it's probably likely. However, I've driven manuals since I got my license 2007, and I've never had a problem (never had to change a clutch, and my first car lasted to 220kkm from 140kkm without showing any signs of needing a new clutch) and I do no like the G's clutch. I drove the MiTo a couple of weeks ago and the clutch was a dream. I think the G and Dart suffer from a bad Clutch Delay Vale implementation. My dad has a 2014 Volvo V70, which I can't imagine doesn't have CDV, that has a very good clutch "feel". Obviously it's helped by the diesel torque.

Anyway, I'm very curious ($130 curious!) about the CDV delete. The consensus is that if you didn't learn to drive manual with a CDV, it's a nightmare. If I can get the "old school" clutch feel I'll be a happy camper.
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Garage
I've been driving clutches since 1974, and always prided myself in my skill to quickly adapt to different cars.
Until my Giulietta!
I shall follow this threat keanely.
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If you delete the clutch delay valve it will put more stress on the transmission as the clutch re-engagement will put a shock through the transmission every time a gear is changed.

Hence why more transmission issues?


How many miles do they get from the TCT before it needs work?

I know they are generally reliable, but they are bound to wear out eventually and due to there being more bits to fix I cannot see repairs being that cheap or straightforward like a manual.
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Iíd never heard of a clutch delay valve.
I always found I had to slip, if thatís the right word, the clutch to get my 170 MA off the line whereas the later 150 MA was a lot easier. Itíd be interesting to know if it was related to the CDV rather than the max torque band of the engine.
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(Post Link) post #7 of 37 Old 14-04-19 Thread Starter
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From all my reading, the CDV was made to make it easier for new manual drivers. To protect the drive line from sudden "clutch drops", something that an "old school" manual driver would never accidentally do. The concept is good, but the execution bad. My dad has a 2014 V70 which in all likelihood has a CDV. Works great there, not so much in the G. Many of the Americans who are used to driving manuals report the same "I've never had a problem until..." story. CDV solved it. Many report premature wear of the clutch, compared to the company that developed the CDV delete that are one 100k+ miles on the original clutch. Makes sense as a CDV makes it impossible to not slip the clutch.

Personally, I've never slipped a clutch in my driving career untill the G.

Fake edit: Also, most thread I've read on the Dodge Dart forums have clutch/transmissions problems on the original setup, but less so with the delete. Obviously very anecdotal and confounded evidence since the people who like the CDV delete are people who know how to drive manual, while the people transmission troubles might not.

Also, CDV delete is a very popular mod on the BMW E90 3-series.

Last edited by jomper; 14-04-19 at 16:38.
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I spent a lot of time there researching oil specifications for the MA. I just don't think the Selenia is much good, and their insistence on a C3 low saps oil that's designed to keep diesel DPFs happy didn't sit right.

US market Multiairs are always specced "conventional" A3 oils - which are better oils if you're after lubrication and longevity with high sulphur fuel (Australia is a bit backwards in many respects, crappy fuel is one of them...).

I put in what the US dealers are told to use - Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 A3/B4 (which is sold in the US as a Pennzoil). Massive improvement in smoothness and quietness over the Selenia.

An alloy subframe and cast wishbones might be a nice G upgrade too https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...alkaround.html
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Last edited by haakon; 15-04-19 at 00:50.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomper View Post
I've been thinking about this. The Dodge Dart (.org) forums are very active, and the community has tons of mods (CDV delete, lightweight flywheel, 4C/1750 coils and so on). The Dart itself is based on a modified G platform, and many have the 1.4 MultiAir in combination with the C635 gearbox in either manual or DCT. From reading on the forums there I've found that:
- the coils suck and wear out quickly
- the clutch sucks, and the clutch delay valve delete kit they've got makes the clutch so much better
- they have tons of upgrade mods in the US that are unheard of here
- the clutch slave and master cylinder tend to go
... and a ton more stuff.

Anyone else been reading the Dart forums?
Which sites do you mean exactly?
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(Post Link) post #10 of 37 Old 15-04-19 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by haakon View Post
I spent a lot of time there researching oil specifications for the MA. I just don't think the Selenia is much good, and their insistence on a C3 low saps oil that's designed to keep diesel DPFs happy didn't sit right.

US market Multiairs are always specced "conventional" A3 oils - which are better oils if you're after lubrication and longevity with high sulphur fuel (Australia is a bit backwards in many respects, crappy fuel is one of them...).

I put in what the US dealers are told to use - Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 A3/B4 (which is sold in the US as a Pennzoil). Massive improvement in smoothness and quietness over the Selenia.

An alloy subframe and cast wishbones might be a nice G upgrade too https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...alkaround.html

Interesting! Coincidentally I didn't notice as many MultiAir problem threads or MultiAir problems being the "go to" answer. That's, however, obviously in no way scientific.
Checked the Dart 1.4 MA owner manual and it recommends "API Certified SAE 5W-40 Synthetic Engine Oil" with the "Chrysler MS-10725" specification. The Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 A3/B4 you mention has this. It also has the Fiat 9.55535-Z2 spec, which sounds suspiciously close to the one we have recommended in our G's. If it's the standard oil in the Darts 1.4 MA engines, it should be totally safe. If it makes it smoother and quieter it's a big plus.
I will be considering this oil when I'm changing it next time.

Also, interesting article about the suspension. Thanks!

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Which sites do you mean exactly?
www.dodge-dart.org
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You’re right, not many multiair failures there. It’s a neat system but at the end of the day it’s just a few plungers and a set of solenoids. Nothing too fancy there!! It’s genius is all in the computer software.

What kills it is oil starvation and dirty oil. Such as you get with the insane oil change intervals done in Europe. 30000kms...? Madness. Here in Oz they’re 15000 and that’s too much imo - I change it every 7500kms while under warranty and getting the book stamped every 15000 and I “might” bump that to 10000 afterward. But only 3.8 litres in a highly strung unit with the dump pipe right next to the sump... Hard on oil...

In the US, no one runs oil this long.
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Yup the Americans sure love to change their oil. While I do think many of them haven't "moved with the times" when it comes to changing oil (i.e they throw out perfectly good oil prematurely), the intervals we get on many euro-cars is insane.
The best thing to do is probably sending oil off for analysis and get a recommendation on intervals etc, but then again oil isn't that expensive and they might not factor in stuff like a MultiAir unit when advising.
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 is £30 for 5 liters off Opie Oils, so it's not too bad.
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One of the best differences between the Dart and the Giulietta is that the Dart got an undertray with access to filters under the front bumper instead of having to remove 30 screws as you hope the Alfa mechanic will?
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My G’s filter is dead easy to access from above. Better than the Megane that requires skinned knuckles to get at... Undertray is only 6 screws though, no biggie.
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I wonder how many air filters donít get changed at service?
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Yeah, I confess I passed on checking that last oil change! But I’m only on 20000s from new and it’s not dusty here. I’ll check it in 7500s next oil change 🙂
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One of the best differences between the Dart and the Giulietta is that the Dart got an undertray with access to filters under the front bumper instead of having to remove 30 screws as you hope the Alfa mechanic will?
The only good thing about that under tray is that it justifies the £££ I spent on an impact driver. Only takes a minute or so with it.
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Yup the Americans sure love to change their oil. While I do think many of them haven't "moved with the times" when it comes to changing oil (i.e they throw out perfectly good oil prematurely), the intervals we get on many euro-cars is insane.
The best thing to do is probably sending oil off for analysis and get a recommendation on intervals etc, but then again oil isn't that expensive and they might not factor in stuff like a MultiAir unit when advising.
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 is £30 for 5 liters off Opie Oils, so it's not too bad.
For the cost of an oil and filter I do a 6 monthly change and an annual full service on all my cars with the G it will also have an MA strainer annually.
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I wonder how many air filters donít get changed at service?
https://youtu.be/5QLsWTayhCI
The "20,000 mile" filter on my car was much worse than that. It was completely black.

The car had previously been serviced at a main dealer not far from my location, although I now think they are under different ownership than they were at the time of my cars service.

The car was on 60,000 miles when I bought it and I don't think it had ever been changed.
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Sure am looking forward to leaving all this servicing malarkey behind... Hopefully be in a Tesla in 5 years and this is the last ICE car I’ll have bought.

All this oil and filters and belts and sparks etc etc etc feels a bit old school. And needlessly complicated!
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The "20,000 mile" filter on my car was much worse than that. It was completely black.



The car had previously been serviced at a main dealer not far from my location, although I now think they are under different ownership than they were at the time of my cars service.



The car was on 60,000 miles when I bought it and I don't think it had ever been changed.


Yes, fiddly to change the air filter and a daft location. Mine hadnít been done in a long while. And I wonder how long the three tiny screws holding the cover on last before going rusty and seizing. As a 916 owner Iíve experienced that pain.


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Someone mentioned in another thread, that it's the same job on a Dodge Dart: https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/17437469-post4.html (Sticking clutch pedal)
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Do the Uk cars even have a CDV valve? Anyone?
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Do the Uk cars even have a CDV valve? Anyone?
From looking at the ePer it actually doesn't seem like it's the same part at least. Would probably be a different design as it needs to pass over to the right side. Interesting. The normal CDV part also looks different from on the 2013+ models, which means that they probably redesigned it to make it less ****. I'm going to be installing the part today or tomorrow and we'll see how it fits.

Left and right ePer for the 2011-2013 cars. Part 4 is the CDV on LHD (emaps2.jpg) cars. Replaced by the 5 in the other picture. It could be that the length of the part acts as the spiral part in the normal CDV, and that the part connects to part no. 4. in the RHD picture (emaps.jpg).
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I spent a lot of time there researching oil specifications for the MA. I just don't think the Selenia is much good, and their insistence on a C3 low saps oil that's designed to keep diesel DPFs happy didn't sit right.

US market Multiairs are always specced "conventional" A3 oils - which are better oils if you're after lubrication and longevity with high sulphur fuel (Australia is a bit backwards in many respects, crappy fuel is one of them...).

I put in what the US dealers are told to use - Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 A3/B4 (which is sold in the US as a Pennzoil). Massive improvement in smoothness and quietness over the Selenia.

An alloy subframe and cast wishbones might be a nice G upgrade too https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...alkaround.html
What a great website!!!! Great info regarding the G's suspension...Ö...thanks for the link
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