The mess that is stop start... - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalgod23 View Post
.....
On my return journey today, over 20 miles the indicated charging voltage was 14.4v all the way and the SS did NOT cut in even once!! Same journey, outside temp 8degC , cabin air con off, temp set manually to 22 degC with medium fan speed (exactly how I have been driving over last couple of weeks whilst observing voltage).
.....




Of course as mentioned before, auto start/stop is not ONLY determined by battery voltage, but by a great many additional parameters.......
So it could be any one of those is preventing start/stop kicking in <img src="https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
I understand that which is why I tried to eliminate all the parameters within my control to ensure they are not influencing the SS. In my case I am trying to determine if battery charging voltage has a direct indication of SS functionality and it certainly appears so. I do get the fact that charging voltage is in turn affected or controlled by the BCM depending on a number of other parameters and "estimations". One thing is for sure, the whole logic is overcomplicated and fails functionality objective on a few levels.
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Someone posted this on the USA Forum and kinda makes sense

------+++++++++------


12V flooded cell lead acid batteries that are fully charged but "at rest" should measure 12.6V, not 12.0 or 12.4V. At rest means that the battery has had time to "settle" after charging (for example, hydrogen on the plates has finished off gassing) and that there is no drain on the battery. You need to disconnect the ground lead and the IBS cable to be certain that the battery has no load.

Maintenance charge is around 13.4-13.6 volts, while recharging is normally around 14.2-14.4 volts (it can be lower if the battery has a low state of charge).

The IBS uses some clues to guess the state of charge of the battery and attempt to prevent over or under charging the battery. One thing it uses is the voltage across the battery while the starter is running. It also monitors the temperature of the battery. Excessive temperature rise indicates a need to reduce the charging rate. If this complicated and delicate system is not working perfectly the battery charge will not be maintained properly. This is a lot different than my pickup truck which simply has a temperature sensor under the battery and maintains 14.4 volts while the engine is running until the temperature gets too high. The truck charging scheme tends to overcharge the batteries and reduces the battery life expectancy as a consequence.

Someone else noted that modern cars minimize the amount of charge going to the battery in order to try to squeeze out a little extra fuel efficiency. Thus, the car generates more charging current when decelerating for example. Perhaps always driving in D mode (battery charging de-prioritized so you can get 1 more HP of net power?) is not ideal for battery maintenance?

I believe that the IBS also tries to monitor total amp-hours in and out of the battery. If that monitoring has been disrupted or is inaccurate there might be problems with the state of charge estimate. One way to have such a problem would be to connect a charger to the battery that bypasses the IBS.

All that said, if you have chronic battery issues I would suspect that the IBS is malfunctioning and/or inaccurate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalgod23 View Post
..... In my case I am trying to determine if battery charging voltage has a direct indication of SS functionality and it certainly appears so. I do get the fact that charging voltage is in turn affected or controlled by the BCM depending on a number of other parameters and "estimations". One thing is for sure, the whole logic is overcomplicated and fails functionality objective on a few levels.
I did get that
My point was that the fact that SS is not working at a certain moment is not necessarily (only) related to battery voltage/IBS, but could also be caused by a lot of other parameters, so functioning of SS is not necessarily a good measure to determine correct functioning of IBS.
Charging voltage is only one of the (many) parameters for SS.

I do agree that the IBS seems to be very complicated, however, a lot of other manufacturers seem to be going that route, wich is why the system components are now of course available from Bosch, MM, etc.
I could see the benefits for hybrid & electric cars....
example: Bosch IBS
continental IBS.pdf
I'd much prefer the simple old fashioned charging system though, with straight forward charging based on voltage, and no SS
At least you knew what was going on there

Last edited by jwq; 27-01-19 at 07:25.
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Did a 200km drive yesterday and today stop start working perfectly! Go figure.....
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After all the moaning at the inability to turn off start stop, look at us reporting in when it's actually working!!
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After all the moaning at the inability to turn off start stop, look at us reporting in when it's actually working!!
Can't do that I always switch it off.

Andy
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Well, not only does it allow you to use heated seats even when it disables the heated rear window (What would cause it to do that when the engine is running?) with the engine running but tonight I had my heated rear on, came to a stop and stop start kicked on.
There just doesn't seem any logic to how it all works.
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I reported my loss of rear windows demist and loss of start/stop.

Thames want the car to investigate and are expecting it to be with them for another few days, (again!). The first slot available was later this month. So I shall keep you all updated.

(17 plate 2.0 petrol, I do lots of motorway miles so I will be surprised if this is a battery charge issue, I even popped the car on a charger a few weeks ago and noticed no improvement)
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I think i read somewhere in this thread that Alfa are switching to AGM batteries. Is there something official stating this?
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I think i read somewhere in this thread that Alfa are switching to AGM batteries. Is there something official stating this?
no, just anecdotal info from people on the USA forum.....
However, might make sense, see f.i.
varta efb agm

Only replace an EFB with an EFB or AGM battery
Starter batteries with AGM or EFB technology are designed to meet the requirements of vehicles with start-stop systems. Normal car batteries cannot deal with the high demands which occur due to discharge during the stop phases. Replacement with a normal battery instead of an AGM or EFB, results in rapid deterioration of the battery, and a breakdown is inevitable. For optimum function, a battery must be used, which is compatible with the vehicle’s battery management system. An upgrade from an EFB to an AGM battery is possible and increases the efficiency of the automatic start-stop system and results in increased efficient fuel consumption.
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After all the moaning at the inability to turn off start stop, look at us reporting in when it's actually working!!
I just want my heated rear screen and mirrors to work in winter. Bloody stupid design!
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I may be tempting fate here, but my previous Speciale had hardwired dashcams fitted, much of my battery troubles started around the time they were fitted.

I haven't fitted the cameras to this car yet, it gets identical use to the previous car and up to now s/s has always worked as well as the HRW.
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for car doing low mileages or left for long, permanent operation of dashcam will be factor of having issues in Giulia/Stelvio where in general there are common battery problems (likely partially due to this "inteligent" charging, maybe also due to battery quality issues?).

single dashcam uses around 80mA (from 12V) for its operation, say it is 2Ah lost every day. would short drives compensate for this - surely it is just another obstacle to keep battery at reasonable/trouble free SoC level.

I have my dashcam connected to non permanent 12V supply (at cigarete lighter fuse), but still got issues, recently even bigger (DTC errors etc). Today they examined my battery in dealer, tester shown it must be replaced ( I seen it produced 502A kick current after recharging vs. specified 800A), and so got brand new one today (8 months used car, 10 months ago manufactured).
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I may be tempting fate here, but my previous Speciale had hardwired dashcams fitted, much of my battery troubles started around the time they were fitted.

I haven't fitted the cameras to this car yet, it gets identical use to the previous car and up to now s/s has always worked as well as the HRW.

I thought your troubles started after the battery was completely drained as a result of the car not being switched off correctly? I remember the thread.

Thereís plenty of us on here with hard wired dash cams (I have BlackVue DR650s 2Ch and MagicPro installed) that havenít had a single problem.

Unless you have also completely drained the battery on your new Veloce, I canít see how you can compare like for like.

I would agree that the problems started and never recovered after the battery was drained... did the dealer replace the Speciale battery after the initial incident?

Short journeys and long periods of non-use will affect battery level regardless whether a Dash Cam is fitted.

If the Dash Cam is incorrectly wired, then you would have a flat battery on many occasions.

Hope youíve not jinxed yourself now



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I reported my loss of rear windows demist and loss of start/stop.

Thames want the car to investigate and are expecting it to be with them for another few days, (again!). The first slot available was later this month. So I shall keep you all updated.

(17 plate 2.0 petrol, I do lots of motorway miles so I will be surprised if this is a battery charge issue, I even popped the car on a charger a few weeks ago and noticed no improvement)
Yes, sadly the application of a battery charger does not seem to have fully resolved the HRW issue. Maybe the battery simply gives up after about 18 months, but it is reported as an issue to Alfa and they will take a look at the next service (in about a month) - so will compare notes.
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I got my battery replaced as old one failed test in dealer service (8 months), I had DTC errors all the time etc.

I see that new one is good, was charged first day and kept 13V overnight in the car. IBS reported 99% SOC (read with MES). But then there is this stupid charging algorithm. I observed over a few days of town driving that SoC dropped to 80%. Basically see more or less following:
1.When SoC is below 75% it is full charging all the time - voltage of 14.4V read in any condition (have voltmeter plugged into cigarette lighter socket)
2.Above this value, full charging is only while breaking, other conditions have dropped charging, I seen values more or less like below:
a)around 80% SoC see 13.3-13.5V
b)around 85% Soc See 12.7V (really this is no charging)

If one drives only short distances and/or uses S&S all the time, basically IMHO has no big chances to have SoC above 75%, and this leads to battery degradation over time (lost of capacity), then weakened battery again is not charged to 100% but 75% so further degradation happens and so on.

I do not use S&S anymore - do not want to kill my new battery quickly.

I will be complaining to dealer, and forcing that TESEO department will log my comments as a ticket and so Italy have chance to see my complaint. Small chance that single ticket will motivate FCA to improve charging algorithm, but maybe if more of you do the same, then they will start treating the issue more seriously and do one day an update for us?
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I got my battery replaced as old one failed test in dealer service (8 months), I had DTC errors all the time etc.

I see that new one is good, was charged first day and kept 13V overnight in the car. IBS reported 99% SOC (read with MES). But then there is this stupid charging algorithm. I observed over a few days of town driving that SoC dropped to 80%. Basically see more or less following:
1.When SoC is below 75% it is full charging all the time - voltage of 14.4V read in any condition (have voltmeter plugged into cigarette lighter socket)
2.Above this value, full charging is only while breaking, other conditions have dropped charging, I seen values more or less like below:
a)around 80% SoC see 13.3-13.5V
b)around 85% Soc See 12.7V (really this is no charging)

If one drives only short distances and/or uses S&S all the time, basically IMHO has no big chances to have SoC above 75%, and this leads to battery degradation over time (lost of capacity), then weakened battery again is not charged to 100% but 75% so further degradation happens and so on.

I do not use S&S anymore - do not want to kill my new battery quickly.

I will be complaining to dealer, and forcing that TESEO department will log my comments as a ticket and so Italy have chance to see my complaint. Small chance that single ticket will motivate FCA to improve charging algorithm, but maybe if more of you do the same, then they will start treating the issue more seriously and do one day an update for us?
I find this analysis of the relationship between state of charge and voltage informative. It also reaffirms my view that the Giulia's charging logic is flawed. One can only hope a software change will be forthcoming.

My logging of IBS data using MES in my Quadrifoglio on the move was always done with the battery charge no higher than 75%. So my conclusion that the Quadrifoglio's battery voltage doesn't vary when the brakes are applied might be wrong.

When I have time I'll put my battery on charge and try to get it above 85% and do some more logging.

It remains a mystery to me why my battery hasn't had a charge higher than 82% reported by MES at any time in the last few months even right after I'd driven 3,000 miles in about a fortnight. Perhaps it is defective or was damaged when it was completely flattened a year ago.

Andy
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My battery got flattened twice and needed a new battery as the SOC never got high enough which stopped the SS and HRW from working.

I also see the same charging voltages as epsonix, including while braking.

Last edited by metalgod23; 14-02-19 at 09:58.
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My battery got flattened twice and needed a new battery as the SOC never got high enough which stopped the SS and HRW from working.

I also see the same charging voltages as Hugh Myles, including while braking.
Not me.....
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Having had the ability to follow the battery charge on the infotainment screen on my 2017 Giulietta Speciale and not needing it it seems a bit of an omission on the Giulia/Stelvio.
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I thiink you guys need to keep complainign to AR dealer and press on them to report to FCA via TESEO department in your country (they talk to Italy) - only many complaints may motivate AR to fix or at least improve this.
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My battery got flattened twice and needed a new battery as the SOC never got high enough which stopped the SS and HRW from working.

I also see the same charging voltages as Hugh Myles, including while braking.
Not me.....
Whoops. Corrected, I meant epsonix's post. Must have read another post by you when I typed!
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I just want my heated rear screen and mirrors to work in winter. Bloody stupid design!
Hear hear! I've been banging on about this (in various threads) since it first reared its head last winter. Raised the issue again with Mangos when in for service last week and they are having it back in for several days next week, although in part that's to fix the heater blower that is no longer blowing - water ingress suspected. Couple steamed up front screen and side windows to frosted rear screen and mirrors and you have an accident looking for a place to happen, so much so that we are using the G as little as possible when the weather is cold - good job I have a reliable (and warm) MX5 to fall back on.
Mangos reckon that the radio rotary volume / on-off switch on the centre console can stick down slightly and partially drain the battery, but that doesn't explain why the not-very-intelligent BMS doesn't fully recharge it once the engine is running, like my old bangers of days gone by would have done. As somebody else commented, call this progress?
Problem is, if they fully recharge the battery, I won't know if they have been successful until the next frosty morning and I find the HRW isn't working again - I'm not expecting S/S to work for long anyway, and don't much care. On that aspect, I've posted before that although we mostly do a lot of (fairly) short journeys, even a 150 mile round trip last year wasn't enough to resurrect the S/S, but that was mainly motorway and by the sound of it charging largely happens when braking, so you could do hundreds of motorway miles and be no better off.
Will try to get a ticket raised to log the issue with FCA and suggest that they read the various postings on this forum if they don't believe the scale of the problem. I was the one who raised the issue with customer service in Italy, who told me that it could only be raised with Alfa Technical through a service agent/dealer.
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I thought your troubles started after the battery was completely drained as a result of the car not being switched off correctly? I remember the thread.

Thereís plenty of us on here with hard wired dash cams (I have BlackVue DR650s 2Ch and MagicPro installed) that havenít had a single problem.

Unless you have also completely drained the battery on your new Veloce, I canít see how you can compare like for like.

I would agree that the problems started and never recovered after the battery was drained... did the dealer replace the Speciale battery after the initial incident?

Short journeys and long periods of non-use will affect battery level regardless whether a Dash Cam is fitted.

If the Dash Cam is incorrectly wired, then you would have a flat battery on many occasions.

Hope youíve not jinxed yourself now



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You are right the day I had the dashcams professionally installed, somehow the car was not switched off completely.

My car went into the dealers and the battery and other items were checked with the battery being boosted to the point it was deemed OK. I've never ever heard of a battery being discharged and not being able to be restored to full capacity. I suppose with the level of electronics in modern cars batteries are more prone.

All I know is the car (HRW & S/S never worked after that event).

My current car minus dashcam has so far this winter survived with S/S & HRW working.

I take your point that the previous battery may have been knackered.

My dashcams wont be fitted until next month.

Back putting on the miles now.
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not sure if you had your dashcams installed from permanent +12V supply or just for recording when ignition is on? IF the first one, note that single typical dashcam uses around 1W of power - seems not a lot, but for a lot of drivers it means that for more than 23h it drains battery - roughtly you loose 2Ah a day. For town driving people/short journeys, recharging has no chance to recharge (as it bearely keeps feeding losts for self-recharge, and starting the motor), and things go bad way over weeks or moths of such use (constant deficit of recharging).
This is on top of some generic issues/sensitivity of these cars (or battery issues, I'm now not 100% sure what is the dominant thing in battery issues people experience)
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