OBD problems ? - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 25Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 65 Old 13-07-18 Thread Starter
jwq
Status: driving Giulia Veloce AWD
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
jwq's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 857
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 6,568
Garage
OBD problems ?

Read on the USA forum about someone having problems accessing the ecu's with MES on 2018 and later models ......
Will not just impact MES of course, but ALL OBD scanners and 3rd party apps using OBD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benkay View Post
Direct from MES mouth. Bad news for 2018 onwards owners :

Unfortunately we cannot do anything about the SGW for now. The SGW (Security Gateway) module blocks any diagnostic tool from executing commands on the vehicle (like actuators, procedures and even clearing of DTCs).

This device is connected between the OBD connector and CAN buses of the car. So, any command sent to any module in the car goes through this device.

The only way to unlock full diagnostic possibilities for these cars is by online Witech2 tool. It reads the unlock codes by VIN from Fiats servers and sends the unlock command to the SGW device. So far no one else has access to these unlock codes.

FCA says that this SGW device protects the car from hacking, but we think that they are actually trying to lock all aftermarket tools/service/car modifications.

There are people who are already trying to hack the device and unlock without the codes, but we have to wait and see.

So far the only possibility for diagnostics of these cars is with Witech2 online tool, or by physically bypassing the SGW device (i.e. connecting to CAN behind this device). People have success by connecting to CAN bus at different point (not at OBD connector, but body computer, dashboard or climate control). Some people also reported that they wired a second OBD port which is connected directly to body computer and does not go through this device so that they can play with their own cars.

Last edited by jwq; 13-07-18 at 13:20.
jwq is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
County: -
Posts: 24
Yeh thatís me.

Quite annoyed because I bought the multiplexed MES kit believing it would fully work.

Canít believe FCA are getting away with it considering the various laws reserving the right for 3rd party maintenance etc.
jwq and domholyfield like this.
benkay is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sweden
County: -
Posts: 179

Member car:

159 2,4 ti

Does it work on pre-2018 Giulias?
Gustav_H78 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
County: -
Posts: 24
Yes it will work.

Itís since been found out that this security gateway was introduced to production in February 2018, so MY2018 cars produced before that are also ok.
tbonanno likes this.
benkay is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sweden
County: -
Posts: 179

Member car:

159 2,4 ti

Ok, sounds lika I should get the full MES and go fiddle about in the settings a bit
Gustav_H78 is offline  
(Post Link) post #6 of 65 Old 13-07-18 Thread Starter
jwq
Status: driving Giulia Veloce AWD
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
jwq's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 857
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 6,568
Garage
jwq is offline  
Status: Overcomplicated battery!
AO Silver Member
 
metalgod23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,652
And where is the SGW module? Easy access or need a whole dash stripdown??

Main issue with this security is user can't reset simple error codes with a generic OBD reader or app, something I have had to do on a few occasions saving me unnecessary trips to dealer like a flat battery or non critical fault code for example. It will also restrict tuning options but am sure with a bypass module like this good tuners can defeat it. FFS FCA!!
Andy Bowden and domholyfield like this.
metalgod23 is offline  
Status: The 8C scholar
AO Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Italy
County: Torino
Posts: 626

Member car:

MiTo, 8C Spider

The SGW is right next to the steering column, under the dash. The unit is supplied by Bosch.
jwq likes this.
MacGeek is online now  
Status: Overcomplicated battery!
AO Silver Member
 
metalgod23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGeek View Post
The SGW is right next to the steering column, under the dash. The unit is supplied by Bosch.
Thanks MacGeek! Question really is, how easy is it to access? Do users need to remove any dash trim? Am guessing then pre 2018 cars don't have SGW? Cheers.
metalgod23 is offline  
Status: The 8C scholar
AO Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Italy
County: Torino
Posts: 626

Member car:

MiTo, 8C Spider

The SGW was introduced in late February of this year (as mentioned by the user who read my message on the US forum), so cars built before that do not have it, correct. To access the SGW you need to remove the under dash panel and the lower air duct.
MacGeek is online now  
(Post Link) post #11 of 65 Old 14-07-18 Thread Starter
jwq
Status: driving Giulia Veloce AWD
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
jwq's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 857
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 6,568
Garage
a benefit for the early (pre-2018) buyers for a change .....
johnafish and tbonanno like this.
jwq is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Italy
County: Pavia
Posts: 3

Member car:

159 jtdm

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGeek View Post
The SGW was introduced in late February of this year (as mentioned by the user who read my message on the US forum), so cars built before that do not have it, correct. To access the SGW you need to remove the under dash panel and the lower air duct.
I want to install the SGW bypass, you have more information how to reach the sgw module? Or pictures... If I remove the left glove compartment, i can reach the SGW connectors?
marmotta is offline  
(Post Link) post #13 of 65 Old 31-10-18 Thread Starter
jwq
Status: driving Giulia Veloce AWD
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
jwq's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 857
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 6,568
Garage
Just for info, found the following :

SGW.pdf
remove/install sgw.pdf
metalgod23 likes this.
jwq is offline  
Status: Overcomplicated battery!
AO Silver Member
 
metalgod23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,652
Looks like post Feb 2018 cars will be a big hassle to install the SGW bypass module. Most annoying would be inability to reset error codes for example those caused by flat battery or use MultiEcuscan!

If bypass is connected after doing said stripdown and installation, one also needs to remove the bypass module before taking it for dealer works as Witech cannot communicate if bypass is present. What a faff!! Upgrading to a newer car is looking a bit off putting.

There are a few additional procedures for knee air bag etc. Jwq would you be able to post those so we can have a complete procedure? Thanks in advance

=========================================
Giulia 2.0 T4 MA (2017), Triumph Speed Triple 'R' (2016).

Previous:
159 2.2 JTS - 2008 - Goodbye Feb 2017.
Ducati 899 Panigale - 2014 - 2016.
Kawasaki Ninja ZX 6R - 2004 - 2014.
=========================================
metalgod23 is offline  
(Post Link) post #15 of 65 Old 31-10-18 Thread Starter
jwq
Status: driving Giulia Veloce AWD
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
jwq's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 857
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 6,568
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalgod23 View Post
...
If bypass is connected after doing said stripdown and installation, one also needs to remove the bypass module before taking it for dealer works as Witech cannot communicate if bypass is present. What a faff!! Upgrading to a newer car is looking a bit off putting.
.......
I would assume that with the bypass module installed, it will just behave as though there is no SGW, so you would not need to remove it before going to the dealer.... Witech should just connect.
On the MES page, it is mentioned that people have also directly connected to the body computer. Probably a bit more fiddly, but easily accessible...

here's the file on the instrument panel
instr panel remove install.pdf
knee blocker.pdf
knee blocker driver.pdf

not quite related, but here's info on the OBD port and networks:
obd port.pdf
networks.pdf
fys connector.pdf
wiring.pdf
wiring 2017 model.pdf
metalgod23, schumiF1 and Massirati like this.

Last edited by jwq; 31-10-18 at 20:57.
jwq is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Italy
County: Pavia
Posts: 3

Member car:

159 jtdm

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwq View Post
Just for info, found the following :

SGW.pdf
remove/install sgw.pdf
Thank you so much!
jwq likes this.
marmotta is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
County: -
Posts: 4
Have any of you succesfully installed the bypass module and get a handhell unit to function normally yet ? Any info would be much appriciated
meldhede is online now  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
County: -
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by meldhede View Post
Have any of you succesfully installed the bypass module and get a handhell unit to function normally yet ? Any info would be much appriciated
I'm actually exploring using the double bypass kit from Zautomotive. I just can't seem to locate the STAR connection box/panel. I think it's in the trunk. Anyone have any idea or schematics of where it is exactly?
Boo2boy is offline  
Status: Overcomplicated battery!
AO Silver Member
 
metalgod23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 1,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo2boy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by meldhede View Post
Have any of you succesfully installed the bypass module and get a handhell unit to function normally yet ? Any info would be much appriciated
I'm actually exploring using the double bypass kit from Zautomotive. I just can't seem to locate the STAR connection box/panel. I think it's in the trunk. Anyone have any idea or schematics of where it is exactly?
I have seen the double bypass kit for Jeep, so being FCA I would think the Giulia would be similar but having said that everything was designed ground up so maybe different. Perhaps you could try messaging @MacGeek ?
Boo2boy likes this.
metalgod23 is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,322
On my Stelvio, produced in April...MES with wifi (their obd tool) works without any problems. Their older unit with BT or any other ELM interfaces sames to have problems. Will have to check if I really have the SGW or not. Will try on my wife's 500X which has the SGW for sure and let you know.
kgb is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 1,145
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb View Post
On my Stelvio, produced in April...MES with wifi (their obd tool) works without any problems. Their older unit with BT or any other ELM interfaces sames to have problems. Will have to check if I really have the SGW or not. Will try on my wife's 500X which has the SGW for sure and let you know.
Are you using MES Multiplex, ie with CANTieCar? I've not been able to get that working in WiFi mode yet.

Andy
Andy Bowden is offline  
kgb
Status: 147 QVD-R
AO Silver Member
 
kgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bulgaria
County: -
Posts: 2,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bowden View Post
Are you using MES Multiplex, ie with CANTieCar? I've not been able to get that working in WiFi mode yet.

Andy
Yes, I will spend a lot more time with it in about two weeks time and let you know how it goes.
kgb is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
County: -
Posts: 36

Member car:

Giulia Petrol

er - Isn't installing software to prevent anyone else maintaining the car except Alfa what is know as anti-competitive?
U696783 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
epsonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Poland
County: Bielsko-Biala
Posts: 636
Garage
guys, I found SCH of SGW connections (for Giulias manufactured since 31 Jan 2018), see attached picture.
can one hint me on bypassing SGW ways. first idea is to take away SGW, do the bypass adapter from its OBD connector side to relevant 2 "car side" OBDs and plug it instead of SGW (manuals from @jwq will be handy, though there is bit of work related to install adapter).
I see one potential issue with this - what if I do Proxi with MES without SGW?Would be able to put back SGW e.g. if I have need to go to dealer for some service, and all will work fine (e.g. no flashing odometer?) - mean that since Proxi run, adding SGW in theory may be discovered as change of car configuration (maybe not as SGW may be treated the same way as other units)?

Would it below be correct bypass adapter which does following connections on SGW:
pin 9A-pin10A-pin12A-pin8A
pin3A-pin2A-pin5A-pin1A
pin7B-pin6B-pin8B
pin2B-pin1B-pin3B

or some lines should stay not connected for some reasons?

@jwq , in other thread (Software and map update), you mentioned idea of connecting directly to CAN somewhere on "car side" of CAN (say at BCM) - wonder if that is safe to do (especially for proxi), are you convinced? Have anybody tried that?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OBD_SGW.jpg (78.0 KB, 37 views)

Last edited by epsonix; 12-02-19 at 10:35.
epsonix is offline  
(Post Link) post #25 of 65 Old 12-02-19 Thread Starter
jwq
Status: driving Giulia Veloce AWD
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
jwq's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 857
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 6,568
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by epsonix View Post
.....
@jwq , in other thread (Software and map update), you mentioned idea of connecting directly to CAN somewhere on "car side" of CAN (say at BCM) - wonder if that is safe to do (especially for proxi), are you convinced? Have anybody tried that?
In your diagram, you can see the CAN networks also end op on the Bodycomputer (M001 ?), located in the passenger footwell....
See also network diagrams I posted earlier in this thread.
As CAN is a simple bus network, I see no reason why you couldn't just tie into the network there, bypassing the SGW. Just buy an OBD expansion cord, cut of one of the plugs on this and connect the wires to the CAN network to create your own "private" OBD bus connector. This way you can leave the SGW intact, no one the wiser I think most/all CAN networks go through the bodycomputer, although you might have to hunt for 1 or 2 of the special ones
The OBD plug is only that, a dumb plug, so no impact on proxy alignments etc.

Haven't tried it myself, as I have no need for it (an advantage of having an earlier model giulia ), however, if you look at the info on the MES site you can see there is also mention of people connecting to the bodycomputer.

You can see required connections for standard OBD here:
http://home.planet.nl/~jwq/scratch/t...ctor%20obd.pdf

From MES site:
2018 MODELS WARNING: Some 2018 vehicles have a "security gateway" module (SGW). The SGW module blocks any diagnostic tool from executing commands on the vehicle (like actuators, procedures and even clearing of DTCs). It is not possible to unlock the SGW module with Multiecuscan. The only diagnostic tool that can unlock full access to the affected vehicles is the factory tool. Another option is to physically connect the diagnostic tool to CAN lines behind SGW module.
The 2018 models with confirmed presence of SGW are: 500X/Renegade, 500L MCA, Doblo, Giulia/Stelvio. The module is also present in some late 2017 vehicles.
You can run the SCAN function (which is also available in the FREE version of Multiecuscan) to check if your vehicle has SGW module.
Boo2boy likes this.

Last edited by jwq; 12-02-19 at 12:08.
jwq is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa Giulia

Tags
obd , problems

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome