Solved-Spider roof fault - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Originally Posted by yerbamateo View Post
Hi Ryan,

Abandon all hope - those sensors apparently are are sold only as a harness, with cabling, part number according to eper is 71748886 for the one on the hood cover. It's far from cheap, eper shows around 200Eu. Dont't know who the supplier is, (Lear?), but I've never saw harnesses sold outside of the official dealer's network.

But - I doubt very much that Hall sensors are faulty, takes probably physical damage to kill them. These are not mechanical microswitches. You can check them, it's basically watching the voltage when you move a small magnet close by.
Test procedure, if anyone needs it, attached below.

Don't know what problems you're experiencing, and why you think it's the sensors... If your mechanic talks about "microswitches" then probably it's time to look elsewhere for advice. BMW used to have proper trainings for their staff on the cabrio hoods, and it's basically the same construction.

//Mateo
One mechanic guessed it would be a mircoswitch or sensor because her didn't have the correct diagnostics equipment and the second was a Alfa dealership. They might of said sensor not switch but a device to give feedback to the car anyway. The Dealership said it was a sensor/microswitch but said they couldn't specific which one and they would have to do a physical investigation.

No way to remove the senors and install new ones onto the harness?

I actually work for Lear EDS as a CAD design engineer so maybe I can get a harness?!?!?
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Sensors can be replaced, harnes is just a bunch of cables. Cut it and solder new one in.
But again - I seriously doubt that Hall sensor is at fault. With the test procedure I've included before you'll be sure.
If Examiner shows no signal from sensor, it's more probable that sensor got knocked and is badly positioned, they can be shifted up and down the cylinder. What symptoms do you have? Roof is not opening at all?
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Sensors can be replaced, harnes is just a bunch of cables. Cut it and solder new one in.
But again - I seriously doubt that Hall sensor is at fault. With the test procedure I've included before you'll be sure.
If Examiner shows no signal from sensor, it's more probable that sensor got knocked and is badly positioned, they can be shifted up and down the cylinder. What symptoms do you have? Roof is not opening at all?
All that happens when I try to put the roof down is the windows open slightly and then nothing other than a error message "Temporary roof failure".

I was thinking of just removing the sensors and soldering new ones in. I expect the sensors are in a holder within the harness assembly. Though I haven't checked this.
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All that happens when I try to put the roof down is the windows open slightly and then nothing other than a error message "Temporary roof failure".
In my experience the roof has an amazing ability to fix itself - with some help. Have you tried doing a manual opening and closing cycle - and then trying an automated one again?
Also check the fluid level in the roof's hydraulic reservoir and that the manual release cable behind the seat in the storage compartment is pushed fully back (mentioned on here many times before).

Manual procedure here - http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_b..._release.shtml

Talking about the roof - maybe helpful for others:
I have for some time now had an issue with the rear window not lifting on the closing cycle to allow the roof deck to close (yet it lifts up every time on the opening cycle). I have now learnt to just go backwards and forwards on the switch a few times at that point where it needs to perform that part of the cycle - and now it closes every time - no more roof anxiety.. woohoo!

Last edited by VeloceRagno; 27-01-17 at 07:56.
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Originally Posted by Ryan_The_Spider View Post
All that happens when I try to put the roof down is the windows open slightly and then nothing other than a error message "Temporary roof failure".

(...)
This would rather indicate problem in door/windows ECU not sending signal to roof ECU, confirming window drop, than any of the sensors.
Check first the pump, oil levels etc, as Veloce suggested. Manual movement of the roof can also clear some problems.

//Mateo
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Originally Posted by VeloceRagno View Post
In my experience the roof has an amazing ability to fix itself - with some help. Have you tried doing a manual opening and closing cycle - and then trying an automated one again?
Also check the fluid level in the roof's hydraulic reservoir and that the manual release cable behind the seat in the storage compartment is pushed fully back (mentioned on here many times before).

Manual procedure here - How to get the hood on a Brera Spider back up if it fails

Talking about the roof - maybe helpful for others:
I have for some time now had an issue with the rear window not lifting on the closing cycle to allow the roof deck to close (yet it lifts up every time on the opening cycle). I have now learnt to just go backwards and forwards on the switch a few times at that point where it needs to perform that part of the cycle - and now it closes every time - no more roof anxiety.. woohoo!
I tried this but with no luck. It works for one circle, (one close then one open) and then it fails.
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I tried this but with no luck. It works for one circle, (one close then one open) and then it fails.
So, starting with closed roof, you can open, then close, and then it cannot open again?

Try this next time - before pressing the button, release manualy the over-the-centre struts on both sides.
Then try to open.

(to clarify - by open roof I mean sky over your head, roof stowed in the cover.. )

//Mateo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_The_Spider View Post
I tried this but with no luck. It works for one circle, (one close then one open) and then it fails.
So, starting with closed roof, you can open, then close, and then it cannot open again?

Try this next time - before pressing the button, release manualy the over-the-centre struts on both sides.
Then try to open.

(to clarify - by open roof I mean sky over
your head, roof stowed in the cover.. )

//Mateo
I put the roof down manually as the open function would not work at the time.

It would close then open (see sky) open but wouldn't close again.

I'll try later this week if I have time your suggestion.
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How are the struts secured?

What tools do you need?

I may of spoke too soon lol
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How are the struts secured?

What tools do you need?

I may of spoke too soon lol
You can see it in the drawing above - struts have plastic heads, secured by metal spring. You'll need a a flat screwdriver, not much more (patience... )

Struts have exactly the same fixing as the struts in the boot or the hood/bonnet. You can look closely there for hints.

//Mateo
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Hi,

I was gonna open a new thread, but found this one describing exactly what I did today, so let me expand a little and give my thumbs up.

My 2007 Spider had two typical roof issues - rear window getting stuck on plastic embellishment of head hoops and arc corner sometimes slightly popping up after closure.
Both issues are solved, changing 2+2 gas struts inside the hood. Mine were totally shot, just as I suspect most of them are after couple of years (keep reading why).

First pair, upper one, rated at 100N, which seems to be responsible for tensioning the roof between 3rd and 4th arc. This keeps (heavy) rear window slightly up when going over the hoops. There´re also elastic straps, that go along each side of the window (photo below), which after couple of years loose elasticity - I pulled them slightly and made a knot, to tense them again.
Second pair of the struts, rated at 200N, keeps lower, fifth arc tensed and roof sealed to the cover. If the corner pops, or you need a lot of force to lock over-the centre struts, this most probably is the gas spring being dead weight.

My 100N springs were completely shot, no force whatsoever. The 200N, one had around 35N (causing shearing of the plastic cover on the hoop on that side), the other had around 120N.

For the replacement gas springs, you´re looking for Stabilus 2609NH and 2607NR. Avoid Alfa Service prices, they're double retail. Myself, I've fitted FA Krosno 23286 250N as lower springs, and Hahn Gasfedern 106729.2 + 2xPX22, charged to 150N (these are industrial quality springs, with valve to regulate or charge the spring, and steel ball mounts). FA Krosno you can get around here for 8-10 quid, Hahn are closer to 18-20 quid/piece. PM me, if you want some contacts here in Poland to get them, many places ship internationally. You basically want 155mm, 40mm displacement, 6/15 gas springs with fi10 ball mounting.

10 full cycles of opening/closing confirm that no issues whatsoever remain.

Removal/refitting is really easy, with just two rivets to drill (I've replaced them with small screws afterwards), and four screws to undo. PM me if you need a detailed procedure.

By the way, popping of the corner is also often caused by the rubber limiter on the over-the-center struts. Undo small allen screw that blocks it, and turn the rubber in.

Last but not least - why those gas springs break? When ordering my springs I spoke to the engineer that designs them, and apparently the biggest factor in gas springs loosing pressure is amount of vibrations, especially when extended.
Unlike gas springs in the boot, or any other places in the car, the ones in the roof are constantly vibrating with the roof up and the car at speed. This means that spring quality is paramount, but anyway they´ll die after 3-4 years anyway and should be replaced. (The ones in the boot can last even 20 years. My other Alfa proves that )

So, it was a good day in the garage, now I need a slightly warmer days to take the Spider for a spin...
Hello Matteo, could I have detailed procedure to remove/refit 200N gas spring? Thanks
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I got them from Sgs-engineering.com a UK company. Very quick postage and helpful too. They can also re-gas struts as long as they are in good condition.
The numbers that I quoted-taken off my original struts were: 7456VP 0200N & 5579XQ 0100N. From these numbers they found their equivalent which come with a 2 year warranty.
Are the parts identical as the parts replaced?

Where where any tools you needed?

Was there any tricky parts to the reassembly?
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Hello Matteo, could I have detailed procedure to remove/refit 200N gas spring? Thanks
Hello amboren,
I'm away from my main computer where I keep the eLearn, so all I can do is to try to answer the questions or doubts you may have. You don't need any specific tools, get good quality replacement struts, take care when drilling the rivets, they are aluminium, but somehow I had an issue to remove them - maybe the drill was too big.
You need to get to screws that attach internal roof textile to the roof stucture. Once this is removed you'll see the struts. Struts have exactly the same security mechanism as the struts that lift the boot/bonnet - you can practice with them.
When installing the struts, remember to do that with arc lowered = struts extended.

That's from top of my head, let me know if there's anything I can help you with,
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Originally Posted by Alphamale View Post
I got them from Sgs-engineering.com a UK company. Very quick postage and helpful too. They can also re-gas struts as long as they are in good condition.
The numbers that I quoted-taken off my original struts were: 7456VP 0200N & 5579XQ 0100N. From these numbers they found their equivalent which come with a 2 year warranty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yerbamateo View Post
Hello amboren,
I'm away from my main computer where I keep the eLearn, so all I can do is to try to answer the questions or doubts you may have. You don't need any specific tools, get good quality replacement struts, take care when drilling the rivets, they are aluminium, but somehow I had an issue to remove them - maybe the drill was too big.
You need to get to screws that attach internal roof textile to the roof stucture. Once this is removed you'll see the struts. Struts have exactly the same security mechanism as the struts that lift the boot/bonnet - you can practice with them.
When installing the struts, remember to do that with arc lowered = struts extended.

That's from top of my head, let me know if there's anything I can help you with,
Do you not need to replace the rivets?
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Do you not need to replace the rivets?
The struts I got are identical to the originals, and came with a 2 year warranty. No rivets are involved in the process, there is a ball joint on the strut that fits onto ball on the car. Was a bit fiddly, but only a screwdriver & pliers were involved. Two of us did mine which made it a bit easier-passing things and holding etc. Just make sure you get the struts the right way around- ie replace a 100N strut with a 100N strut and 200 with a 200.
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The struts I got are identical to the originals, and came with a 2 year warranty. No rivets are involved in the process, there is a ball joint on the strut that fits onto ball on the car. Was a bit fiddly, but only a screwdriver & pliers were involved. Two of us did mine which made it a bit easier-passing things and holding etc. Just make sure you get the struts the right way around- ie replace a 100N strut with a 100N strut and 200 with a 200.
Thank you for confirming that.

How long did it take you to fit them with help?
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Hello amboren,
I'm away from my main computer where I keep the eLearn, so all I can do is to try to answer the questions or doubts you may have. You don't need any specific tools, get good quality replacement struts, take care when drilling the rivets, they are aluminium, but somehow I had an issue to remove them - maybe the drill was too big.
You need to get to screws that attach internal roof textile to the roof stucture. Once this is removed you'll see the struts. Struts have exactly the same security mechanism as the struts that lift the boot/bonnet - you can practice with them.
When installing the struts, remember to do that with arc lowered = struts extended.

That's from top of my head, let me know if there's anything I can help you with,
Thanks, I'll try ...
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Originally Posted by Alphamale View Post
The struts I got are identical to the originals, and came with a 2 year warranty. No rivets are involved in the process, there is a ball joint on the strut that fits onto ball on the car. Was a bit fiddly, but only a screwdriver & pliers were involved. Two of us did mine which made it a bit easier-passing things and holding etc. Just make sure you get the struts the right way around- ie replace a 100N strut with a 100N strut and 200 with a 200.
Rumors says about an Alfa not official warning. In practice they say to replace the 100N struts with 200N.
I don't know if really exist but I'm going to do so ...
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Rumors says about an Alfa not official warning. In practice they say to replace the 100N struts with 200N.
I don't know if really exist but I'm going to do so ...
On that - I guess no harm done if you put 200N all around, instead of 100N. Myself, I've put 150N and 250N.
Don't put 100N instead of 200N - those springs has to be strong to keep the seal between the roof and the cover. Popping corner is the symptom of a weak spring there.
One thing to keep in mind though - rated force of the spring is at 20deg. When hotter, pressure ergo force, is higher, and vice versa. High temperatures and vibrations is what kills those springs quickly.
So, with all due respect to British weather, you can easily put 200N instead of 100N. For vacations in Spain, I must be a bit more careful...

Last edited by yerbamateo; 13-04-17 at 05:53.
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Originally Posted by Alphamale View Post
The struts I got are identical to the originals, and came with a 2 year warranty. No rivets are involved in the process, there is a ball joint on the strut that fits onto ball on the car. Was a bit fiddly, but only a screwdriver & pliers were involved. Two of us did mine which made it a bit easier-passing things and holding etc. Just make sure you get the struts the right way around- ie replace a 100N strut with a 100N strut and 200 with a 200.
Rivets on both sides keep a short strap, that links internal roof lining to the roof structure. With straps removed, it's easier to get to the springs, but yeah, I guess with a bit of gymnastics and small hands you can swap the springs without cutting the straps or removing the rivet.
I've drilled the rivets, later replaced them with small bolt and nuts.
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Rivets on both sides keep a short strap, that links internal roof lining to the roof structure. With straps removed, it's easier to get to the springs, but yeah, I guess with a bit of gymnastics and small hands you can swap the springs without cutting the straps or removing the rivet.
I've drilled the rivets, later replaced them with small bolt and nuts.
This makes more sense, sorry I thought this was related to the struts.

Where did you get the replacement springs from?

Do you have any photos?

Is it essential to tie the elastic tight?

How long did it take to do this section of the fix?

Sorry for all these questions but I am sure other people would appreciate it too.
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This makes more sense, sorry I thought this was related to the struts.

Where did you get the replacement springs from?

Do you have any photos?

Is it essential to tie the elastic tight?

How long did it take to do this section of the fix?

Sorry for all these questions but I am sure other people would appreciate it too.
Cheaper and faster solution to take sprins:

Alfa Romeo Spider Roof Gas Strut - 7456VP, 9461405C02, 2609NH
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Cheaper and faster solution to take sprins:

Alfa Romeo Spider Roof Gas Strut - 7456VP, 9461405C02, 2609NH
This one is a 150N compatible strut:

Vehicle Step Lift Gas Strut - 4851DA
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Workshop

.

Last edited by amborem; 13-04-17 at 09:32.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_The_Spider View Post
This makes more sense, sorry I thought this was related to the struts.

Where did you get the replacement springs from?

Do you have any photos?

Is it essential to tie the elastic tight?

How long did it take to do this section of the fix?

Sorry for all these questions but I am sure other people would appreciate it too.
I found the struts online, there's also a shop in Cracow, where I reside now. I've put above the brand and models used. SGS ones seem to be a good quality as well.
It took me more or less an hour to change them, ymmv. It's really not complicated, once you release the inner lining. If you dont't feel confident with the strut mounting, practice pulling the release tab an the bonnet struts, you'll quickly get a hang of it.

Elastic strap was a bit stretched in mine, that's why I tied a knot. But change the struts, and see if the window is catching on the hoops, maybe it's not necessary.

Again, sorry to repeat - replace the struts with the roof up/closed, so the struts are stretched when mounting. And remember proper positioning, ie on which side is the piston, or look at my post #23, it contains a picture that might help.
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