2.0 JTDm rough idle when DPF regen - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 27 Old 09-12-15 Thread Starter
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2.0 JTDm rough idle when DPF regen

Hi all,

My 2011 SW has started spluttering when it performs a DPF regen - a couple of times now it has had a really rough, jumpy idle that feels at any moment it's ready to stall. I'm probably going to show my age a bit here when I say this, but it reminds me of the bad old days if you ran your car with the choke out too long and it started to hunt

Up until now, when performing a regen it ran with no boost, sounded a bit boomy from the exhaust, and stank of hot oil - but otherwise was fine. Now I get all that, and a very lumpy idle too. It seems to drive fine while it is doing this, but come to a stop and the rev counter needle is noticably twitchy and you can feel the engine is running roughly.

So far I've ignored it given it only happens during a regen but what is a little odd is that it did it from cold this morning on the way to work. I thought they only ever ran a regen when warm, but there was definitely the usual signs of a regen (no boost and the boomy exhaust) even before the temperature gauge had got to the normal position. And there was this lumpy, spitty, slightly misfiry idle. By the time I had got to work it had warmed up, was boosting normally, and running perfectly smoothly again.

Any thoughts? I've yet to see any warning lights or errors up on the dash and it is currently running on Shell vPower diesel (if that makes any difference to a regen - since I bought it in April it has been fed Shell premium diesel with Millers ecomax additive).

Ta in advance!


Last edited by TheCrust; 09-12-15 at 12:10.
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Sounds odd. What is mileage of car and how long is your commute. Mostly cruising or is it stop start driving?
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It's just coming up to 80k.

My commute is a 6-mile jaunt into town though because of the time I go in, there isn't as much stop-start as there could be so it's usually on the move at a reasonable speed rather than crawling - and the coolant at least does warm through reasonably properly on the trip to work.

Once a week it gets a blast down a 10-mile stretch of dual carriageway when we go do the weekly shop and then every couple of weeks there is a 120-mile round trip on the motorway to see the in-laws.

It's done that regularly since I bought it in April and while I accept that's not usage usually associated with diesel ownership (I couldn't find a late petrol Sportswagon), it has been faultless up until recently.

There wasn't a hint of anything odd on the way home this evening and I've since been out in it to Uttoxeter, so a 50-ish mile round trip at speed down the A50 and M1. Behaved perfectly!
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Hi TheCrust

Mine does something very similar and always has.

As you say, when the regen ocurrs and you're cruising along, it's only really noticable as the rev's approach 2k . This is most noticeable when you lift off the throttle to slow, and the revs start to fall - when they get near 2k the exhaust gets very boomy indeed :-)

However, if you slow down to a stop and idle at some lights, mine has always fluctuated the revs in the way you describe. What I do now - is to lift the refs a few hundred rpm above normal idle, and then there's no more fluctuation and no concerns about stalling.

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Hello Rancid - it's good to know mine isn't the only one that does it, thanks for that.

I'm just really puzzled not only that this hunting is new behaviour so something has changed to introduce it, but by the fact I'm fairly sure it did a regen yesterday morning before it had warmed up - as far as I knew they weren't supposed to do that...

Oh well, we all know Alfas can be a law unto themselves sometimes, perhaps this is one of those moments

I'm going to go back to the regular Shell diesel / Millers additive combo I used to use for a bit and see if it calms down.

Ta again!


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it does happen at times, but should be very mild. uneasy idling as compared to lumpy...

My guess is this happens when the fuel trim is a bit off, ie you got fuel from another supplier with differing viscosity since the last calibration (every couple of hundred miles). EN590 allows for alarge variation in fuel viscosity - between 2.0 and 4.5 mm²/s. a lot of biodiesel content makes viscosity higher, less biodiesel makes viscosity less.

Since I buy branded fuel from the same supplier, this has all but gone.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCrust View Post
Hello Rancid - it's good to know mine isn't the only one that does it, thanks for that.

I'm just really puzzled not only that this hunting is new behaviour so something has changed to introduce it, but by the fact I'm fairly sure it did a regen yesterday morning before it had warmed up - as far as I knew they weren't supposed to do that...

Oh well, we all know Alfas can be a law unto themselves sometimes, perhaps this is one of those moments

I'm going to go back to the regular Shell diesel / Millers additive combo I used to use for a bit and see if it calms down.

Ta again!


Crust

Hello,

Reviving an old thread here, but hoping you can help. I have an almost exact issue with my 159 2.0 Jtdm. Did you ever get to the root cause of your issues ? Or can anyone else shed any light ?

I get an intermittent hesitation on light throttle that occurs for a period before going away for a while and then returning. Truly intermittent and im thinking it could be during a DPF regen. When the problem occurs if i pull over i get a very lumpy idle which has caused it to stall. During driving i get the hesitation only on light throttle and some exhaust soot plumes. Ive check all vacuum lines, all MAF, MAP, throttle valve and EGR are clean. My EGR is actually coded to remain closed, and logging on AlfaOBD confirms this. Although, will the EGR still operate during a DPF regen ? I only ever use Shell fuel, with miller additive recently, but the issue occurred before then.

Im also suspecting a fueling issue, as changing the fuel filter a while back seemed to cure the issue, but only for a month or so, then it returned. But the new filter cant be blocked already.

One very interesting thing, when the issue occurs with light throttle whilst cruising, i can hear what sounds like a metallic valve opening/closing abruptly. Now i cant get it to do this whilst stationary to see where the noise is coming from.

Its all a mind tease. urgh.

Appreciate any other insights people can add.

Thanks
Tom

Last edited by T5FAU; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:39.
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Mine does exactly the same. She is at 127000miles.
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Mine does exactly the same. She is at 127000miles.
Reassuring to know im not alone, it does seem very common, but with no common fixes...

What confuses me with mine is that it all points to the EGR, however mine has been coded out and logging shows its not moving...
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Might not be relevant, but my 2.0JTDm at 120k+ mile has started to regen every week (regular as clockwork at the moment, every Friday evening on a 120 mile motorway/fast A road drive) I do a stupid amount of around town during the week and then a blast of 120 miles Friday and Sunday without fail for 7 months during summer.

Currently it's doing my head in, the DPF is obviously in it's last throws of life (EGR been mapped out and closed for the last 4 years)

I'm going to take it off and either drill it out or replace with a straight through pipe.

I did that on my last 1.9JTDm with no issues so as long as I'm careful to not make it obvious I see no problems.

other than the eco police who think it's a good idea to dump the soot into the countryside in one big hit rather than a little at a time through the whole country :-)

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….No problems?.... apart from you cant pass an MOT like that anymore (its no longer just a visual check to see the cylinder is there).....oh and there the minor detail of a £2000 fine if the authorities catch you on a spot check....which are getting ever more common...at least where I live.

….mine used to regen that regularly....until I started doing longer runs. The 2.0 regens more often than the 1.9 and 2.4 anyway to keep the DPF clean. One of the reasons its Euro 5 spec. Mine is at 150,000 with the original DPF with no issues. Download a DPF monitor app like i did and link it via a bluetooth OBD2...then you can keep an eye on the DPF clogging level and see how fast it cloggs and how clean it gets after a dpf. Also on these cars the regen period will shorten if you switch off the motor without the regen completing .It takes ten minutes on the 2.0....so even if you switch off at 9 minutes the next regen will be much sooner.

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I can't see an issue with a regen every week, if its collected soot, its collected soot, especially if its all town work beforehand.
To the thread reviver.....although the EGR has been mapped out.....have you still got the manifold flaps in place?....if so, probably carboned up and not shutting or opening correctly.
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I can't see an issue with a regen every week, if its collected soot, its collected soot, especially if its all town work beforehand.
To the thread reviver.....although the EGR has been mapped out.....have you still got the manifold flaps in place?....if so, probably carboned up and not shutting or opening correctly.
Does the 2.0 still have the swirl flaps in the manifold ? I wasn't sure it did? What confuses me is that the car runs beautifully most the time, but then like a dog at intermittent times, which i *think* is when a DPF regen takes place, although it has happened before within 1 minute of starting and pulling away. What happens during a regen that would cause these issues ? More fuel i assume. Like i mentioned before, changing the fuel filter in the past seemed to cure it for around 3 months then it came back, surely the fuel filter doesn't need changing that often, unless my tank is rusting and pulling through too much shmutz. The last 2 weeks the issue hasn't occurred, but im sure it will return soon. I do 70 miles of motorways a day so has plenty of good runs.

Any help appreciated.

Last edited by T5FAU; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:51.
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Our Giulietta runs better when doing a regen.

It pulls better, turbo spools up faster and the engine is quieter.

I wish it could be like that all of the time to be honest, only without the hefty fuel consumption.
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Im still having these intermittent stutters and rough idles. The other day it was stuttering bad whilst in traffic and after parking up in a car park, it stalled, then wouldn't start for ~10 mins. Im trying to get some decent logs when the issue occurs, but of course intermittent problems dont occur at convenient times. Ive had the EGR out before and cleaned, however, i have been getting error code P0490 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve control out 2. However, my EGR is coded shut and logging confirms this, so ive ignored this error. I dont want to be replacing a £150 valve when its not even being opened. Does anyone know if this could still be causing the stuttering ?

Also, for the first time, the last 2 days, the boost level wouldn't go higher than ~1bar, stuck solid despite full throttle, this suddenly fixed itself though.

Im also investigating the levels of vacuum and the turbo solenoid valve, some wynns turbo vane cleaner is also working its way through. It seems the problem could attributed to a thousand things.

Any help or insight welcome please.
Thanks
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2.0 JTDm rough idle when DPF regen

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Originally Posted by symon View Post
Our Giulietta runs better when doing a regen.

It pulls better, turbo spools up faster and the engine is quieter.

I wish it could be like that all of the time to be honest, only without the hefty fuel consumption.


Blank the EGR then! Most of this is because the EGR shuts during regens. I fitted a partial blanking plate to my Giulietta, harder than on the 1.9 but still doable.

Be aware, the EGR can still leak if coded shut, always get a blanking plate.


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Be aware, the EGR can still leak if coded shut, always get a blanking plate.
Im wondering if this is my issue. I will contact the map vendor to understand if the EGR is still opened in any circumstance. How can you put an EGR blanking plate on the 2.0 ? i didnt think it was possible.
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Easy...I did it on mine.....although a restrictor rather than a full block in my case. It blocks the pipe from the EGR to the manifold rather than the EGR itself...which as you say can't be done due to the shape of the EGR valve. Exactly the same effect though...Both types of plates are only a couple of quid on ebay.
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I too have the same model (my second one) I love the car and in general its been reliable, but any issues have always been diesel related, which is why i will never get another diesel again.

Not helpful I know, just saying!!
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Unfortunate…..based on this forum its seems that to 2.0 JTDm is about the most reliable with the least problems. I guess you can always get a dud one. That said Im looking as replacing mine with a TBI in the near future. Nothing wrong with the car.....just (hopefully) I will be doing a lot less miles....my high mileage being the only reason I bought it.
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This is my first diesel and yes the higher MPG is welcome and the instant torque is nice, but these kind of problems mean i wont get another one. Petrol all the way. The cost saving on fuel is blown on the 19" tyres anyway hahaha.

Ive been logged various sensors for my hesitation and everything checks out, unless the sample rate is too slow and im missing the events. I also tested the N75 turbo solenoid and that seems to be ok, well at least inline with reports of how other peoples perform. The 2.0 does seem to be far less prone to issues, but not exempt, of course.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaitalia View Post
Easy...I did it on mine.....although a restrictor rather than a full block in my case. It blocks the pipe from the EGR to the manifold rather than the EGR itself...which as you say can't be done due to the shape of the EGR valve. Exactly the same effect though...Both types of plates are only a couple of quid on ebay.
Thanks, ill look for this blanking plate, got any links ? The pipe from the EGR, is that the metal one above and to the left, with a webbed cover ?
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Yes. I used this.....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Valve...kAAOSwRgJXjQQ1


Oops....no...actually I used this....did not want to fully blank it off....but both will fit, its up to you whether you want to fully block it. I didn't want the hassle of mapping it out.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/45A-EGR-b...YAAOSwxYxUxqVl


Both listings have a diagram of where it goes.
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Well blanking plate now fitted however not convinced the problem is any different, the noise of a metallic valve closing at the same time as the hesitation is still there but I can't pinpoint the location. I'm also suspicious of a fuel pressure problem, need to review some logging I've done in AlfaOBD.

Can anyone else add any ideas. The web and AO is full of reports of hesitation at around 2k along with this valve shutting noise, yet none give any proper fixes, the threads just stop. EGR seems a normal culprit but mine is now coded and blanked shut. Injector seals are commonly accused of but I can't see any sign that mine are the problem.

I had a breakdown the other day as when the stuttering occurs at idle, the car wants to stall and then won't start again for around 30 mins and lots of trying. I also had a water in fuel warning. Fuel filter is brand new and draining some fuel off showed no water. Also fitted a new battery for good measure.

All a bit confused. Help.
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It could be an issue with the throttle body.

Diesels didn't have throttle bodies until they started being fitted with DPF's, but they are fitted on DPF vehicles to restrict the airflow into the engine during a regeneration and allow higher exhaust gas temperatures.

It might be that it needs a clean out?
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