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Oil circulation 3.2 JTS

Hi, guys,
Can any of you help me with a diagram of the oil circulation in the V6 JTS. I have the feeling that the oil is not always draining properly to the sump and I get sometimes strange readings on the oil level. It goes down, then goes up, than down again. I use to double check with the dipstick. And both readings seem to be in resonance.
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2006 159 2.2jts

Look for posts from sizewell, he's rebuilding one with lots of modifications to the oil system. He appears to have an engineering background and thinks the engine has been poorly designed as far as oil circulation goes.
Modified 3.2 rebuild is the current thread and there was another similar one he started before that, but I can't remember it's title! Interesting stuff too, and is making me wonder about my 2.2!
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Oil circulation 3.2 JTS

Sizewell talks the talks, but in my opinion, doesnít walk the walk.
He sounds technical, but his expertise is in electrical engineering, not auto engineering.

What will be happening in your case is very common. Iíd have a random stab in the dark and say youíre experiencing sludge build up in the sump area.
If oil isnít changed every 3-5k in these engines then thatís the cause. Use a top quality engine flush, top quality oil, and filter. That should have the level on the dash read out sorted. If your oil temp gauge works fine, then so should your level reader.

Always make sure that 6 Litres is in the sump too. Just in case youíre under - filled


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Always make sure that 6 Litres is in the sump too. Just in case you’re under - filled

Fantastic advice! More importantly given the depth of the oil pick up.
Pic taken with sump on.
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are you saying that the oil temperature gauge in the centre dash is going up and down?

If so, this is the temp sensor thats failed
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Fantastic advice! More importantly given the depth of the oil pick up.
Pic taken with sump on.


Great pic that. At least thereís no sludge build up as itíd be all on the strainer.
Engine must be spotless


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are you saying that the oil temperature gauge in the centre dash is going up and down?

If so, this is the temp sensor thats failed
No, I mean the oil level readings. I went to a carbon cleaning with Nitrogen not long ago. I run on Motul 5w40 8100 xess. I changed it 4K KM ago. I plan on switching to Motul 5w50 Sport Ester based. So, would you recommend decoupling the sump from the engine and cleaning it?
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No, I mean the oil level readings. I went to a carbon cleaning with Nitrogen not long ago. I run on Motul 5w40 8100 xess. I changed it 4K KM ago. I plan on switching to Motul 5w50 Sport Ester based. So, would you recommend decoupling the sump from the engine and cleaning it?
It is not an easy job to get the sump off this engine - in situ that is.

Generally, this engine suffers from caking, particularly down the front engine cover and on the heads, cam covers and camshaft bearing caps.

The engine was designed around 4 litre capacity with 1.8 litres in transit. The Quantity was increased but no redesigning of the sump took place until the current incarnation, but of course Alfa had ditched it by then.

The caking builds up on the heads as the oil vapours settle due to very poor extraction from under the cam covers, into the inlet beyond the MAF.

The cam covers are plastic, very low profile so fumes pass very close to the bearing caps and deposit carbon build up progressively. But it seems these burnt components stay in suspension in the sump and appear to drain out when the oil is changed as my sump at 113,000 was pretty clean. The pick up on this engine does not appear to sludge up as it is sitting too high up off the sump floor for the liking of many commentators, including me. It is another reason why the pick up can be exposed on hard cornering, even when levels are good.

Drainage from the heads unfortunately passes the oil back into the sump above the upper windage plate, directly in line with the crankshaft rotating journals and at high revs whips the returning oil into windage along with blow - by hydrocarbons - the fundamental reason for the oil fouling so quickly.

There are four serious restrictions within the block, which in my opinion cause the engine to suffer a degree of oil starvation, but none are so severe as to cause a blockage. It is true, they do cause the oil pump pressure relief to open early - effectively limiting the maximum flow rate to maintain all engine services. But not in my opinion, cause what you are experiencing.

The only area where; off the top of my head, it may be possible is in the Oil Cooler/Filter Unit.

Blow - by products contain a lot of water vapour along with other contaminants and this moisture can result in emulsified oil collecting in the oil filter housing, particularly when the engine is still cold, thus reducing flow rate, further opening the oil pump pressure relief valve and seemingly causing there to be very little oil in circulation around the block

On the basis of the M. I.T./SAE papers, with a 4 litre design capacity, with 1.8 litres in circulation ( 2.2 in the sump ), for the period where emulsified oil in the filter forms a single mass, until dissolving with temperature, the oil level in the sump would appear high.
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Sizewell talks the talks, but in my opinion, doesnít walk the walk.
He sounds technical, but his expertise is in electrical engineering, not auto engineering.

What will be happening in your case is very common. Iíd have a random stab in the dark and say youíre experiencing sludge build up in the sump area.
If oil isnít changed every 3-5k in these engines then thatís the cause. Use a top quality engine flush, top quality oil, and filter. That should have the level on the dash read out sorted. If your oil temp gauge works fine, then so should your level reader.

Always make sure that 6 Litres is in the sump too. Just in case youíre under - filled


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I see youíre ďBack to Pinning the Tail on the DonkeyĒ
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Look for posts from sizewell, he's rebuilding one with lots of modifications to the oil system. He appears to have an engineering background and thinks the engine has been poorly designed as far as oil circulation goes.



Modified 3.2 rebuild is the current thread and there was another similar one he started before that, but I can't remember it's title! Interesting stuff too, and is making me wonder about my 2.2!
Picture of front of 3.2 JTS Block - oil ways cast into the block can be seen. You are not wrong about the 2.2.
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File Type: jpg CLLS2.jpg (93.9 KB, 25 views)

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ahh, my 3.2 on a 7,000 mile road trip in 2 months last summer had some interesting times with the oil

In this time i went through 3 litres of oil just topping up, however i was driving flat out and on track for the majority

I am told that the electronic gauge on the dash is a abit cumbersome and doesn't always read a true value, i have been alarmed a few times with it saying i have had virtually no oil in and then when ive checked its been completely fine

high quality oil is good for these engines, i use millers motorsport race oil
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If your oil consumption is that much over the course of 7k miles, then Iíd be think of using a similar product to the one in the link

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F173733930256


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Oil circulation 3.2 JTS

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Originally Posted by sizewell View Post
I see youíre ďBack to Pinning the Tail on the DonkeyĒ


No mate, just telling it how I see it.

Actions speak louder than words my friend..
They built over 1.1 million HFV6 engines over the course of 13 years at the Fishermans Bends site, but I suppose they didnít know as much as you do when it comes to the engineering side of these engines. What you reckon??

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If your oil temp gauge works fine, then so should your level reader.

Always make sure that 6 Litres is in the sump too. Just in case youíre under - filled


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The Oil temp gauge works fine. I am almost certain that the issue is not with the level reader, since whenever I cross-reference it with the dip stick, the readings are an exact match to the mm. This "issue" manifests itself after some trashing or long heavy-traffic trips in the city.The car stays several hours and the level appears to have dropped by 1 or 2 sections of the scale. After another trip it goes back to the previous level, or even 1 above that, than back down 1 to normal.

By 6 liters in the sump, do you mean that I have to use 6L of oil instead of the recommended 5.5L? Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Oil circulation 3.2 JTS

Yes, use a full six litres. Preferably Dexos rated oil too. Then I canít see the level reader getting confused after that...

Iíve always used Valvoline Synpower 5w/40
I also use it in my 3.2 VR6 engine. It sounds and performs much better using Valvoline

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Yes, use a full six litres. Preferably Dexos rated oil too. Then I canít see the level reader getting confused after that...

Iíve always used Valvoline Synpower 5w/40
I also use it in my 3.2 VR6 engine. It sounds and performs much better using Valvoline

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Not saying I know anything about this issue, but my 159 Sump pan is sitting in the hall. It is now has baffles and an extended windage plate to cover the full length of the sump. Out of interest, the latest incarnation of this engine also has baffles fitted and the windage plate extended pretty much the way I have done mine. Obviously with the resources at their disposal, the latest version looks very neat. Mine is not bad, but obviously not to the same standard. Plus the capacity of the latest is greater by a substantial margin.

Now I am aware of what they produced in Aus and the numbers. However, clearly things were not entirely satisfactory - regardless of production numbers - as the original engine from which the 3.2 JTS was derived has long been consigned to bin. And clearly the issues I have been addressing are mimicked in the latest incarnation. I posted the details of this latest version on my modified Brera engine thread.

However, just prior to leaving home yesterday, I filled my sump with six litres of liquid. Just for the record, the fill level came to 1 centimeter above the windage plate at the centre of the scalloping for the crankshaft and journals. And the level sensor would most definitely read full as it is completely submerged by a considerable margin.

This is when the sump is sitting level on the worktop. This level brings it to within millimeters of the crankshaft and journals and most definitely, when the car is cornering, they would be taking a bath. The oil recommended will need to exhibit serious anti foaming properties to avoid a head on the oil better than a pint of Tetley's Bitter.

Caveat emptor. I would not be filling my engine to those levels, preferring to keep the extra oil in the can and topping up more frequently.


Been investigating further my "pre - lubrication system" for my Brera engine and came across this. Quite heath Robinson, but the issue of chain tension came up, event though the vehicles are Ford.

So, just investigating further the potential for modifying the hydraulic tensioner to help them retain their fill, whilst the engine is switched off. As the guy says in the video, they don't work - on the Fords and sure as eggs are eggs, the JTS hydraulic tensioner are no better.

Unfortunately one of the valves inside the tensioners is the wrong way round. I'll let others think about that one. But they do not do what Alfa claim on the e-disc. But nothing on this engine seems to anyway. Although I have a high regard for the ECU.
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I filled my sump with six litres of liquid. Just for the record, the fill level came to 1 centimeter above the windage
well all you had to do was fill the sump with 4.2 litres of liquid given you have previously stated 1.8 litres is in circulation(would like to know the source of this information). Is the oil level now still above the windage plate? I suspect not.

Also please lets not get into semantics of remaining oil in the system after draining for a full oil service(filter+oil).
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well all you had to do was fill the sump with 4.2 litres of liquid given you have previously stated 1.8 litres is in circulation(would like to know the source of this information). Is the oil level now still above the windage plate? I suspect not.

Also please lets not get into semantics of remaining oil in the system after draining for a full oil service(filter+oil).
Search MIT Library and SAE papers.

"Is the oil level now still above the windage plate? I suspect not." - what you only suspect?

I am not making any recommendations about what people should or should not do. Simply stating, six litres takes the oil level to above the windage plate. No baffles, transversally mounted engine - not a good idea to dip a rotating crank in the oil. Four litres take the oil level to just above the lower plate - which is the level this engine was initially designed around. The upper plate was added later, as was an extra 1 litre of fill. That's it - take it or leave it!
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Four litres take the oil level to just above the lower plate - which is the level this engine was initially designed around. The upper plate was added later, as was an extra 1 litre of fill. That's it - take it or leave it!
Excellent, no risk of the crankshaft aerating or whipping oil around with a 6 litre fill while the engine is operating. Result, no loss of oil pressure(aeration), no loss of power(drag on crank) and no increase in oil temperature(oil splash to block/cylinders).
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Not saying I know anything about this issue, but my 159 Sump pan is sitting in the hall. It is now has baffles and an extended windage plate to cover the full length of the sump. Out of interest, the latest incarnation of this engine also has baffles fitted and the windage plate extended pretty much the way I have done mine. Obviously with the resources at their disposal, the latest version looks very neat. Mine is not bad, but obviously not to the same standard. Plus the capacity of the latest is greater by a substantial margin.

Now I am aware of what they produced in Aus and the numbers. However, clearly things were not entirely satisfactory - regardless of production numbers - as the original engine from which the 3.2 JTS was derived has long been consigned to bin. And clearly the issues I have been addressing are mimicked in the latest incarnation. I posted the details of this latest version on my modified Brera engine thread.

However, just prior to leaving home yesterday, I filled my sump with six litres of liquid. Just for the record, the fill level came to 1 centimeter above the windage plate at the centre of the scalloping for the crankshaft and journals. And the level sensor would most definitely read full as it is completely submerged by a considerable margin.

This is when the sump is sitting level on the worktop. This level brings it to within millimeters of the crankshaft and journals and most definitely, when the car is cornering, they would be taking a bath. The oil recommended will need to exhibit serious anti foaming properties to avoid a head on the oil better than a pint of Tetley's Bitter.

Caveat emptor. I would not be filling my engine to those levels, preferring to keep the extra oil in the can and topping up more frequently.
Hi, mate, why is taking the sump off so tricky? I have an indie (I believe that is what you guys call mechanics colloquially) with a shop and everything needed. Does the motor have to go down for this? I have been looking at some info regarding the upgrade of the oil circulation and a ran onto an interesting site with recommendations for custom windage whats a windage tray do? | Grumpys Performance Garage
Did you do something similar. If yes, it would be interesting to see how it looks.

Do you consider foaming has a leading role in oil consumption in this engine? And what would be the other causes, apart from GDI itself?
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Hi, mate, why is taking the sump off so tricky? I have an indie (I believe that is what you guys call mechanics colloquially) with a shop and everything needed. Does the motor have to go down for this? I have been looking at some info regarding the upgrade of the oil circulation and a ran onto an interesting site with recommendations for custom windage whats a windage tray do? | Grumpys Performance Garage
Did you do something similar. If yes, it would be interesting to see how it looks.

Do you consider foaming has a leading role in oil consumption in this engine? And what would be the other causes, apart from GDI itself?
Hi!

Sadly I do not have the facilities to do too much mechanical work on my car(s), so I have to rely on dealers/specialists. On evidence of their costs, I would avoid the Marque all together. It is just I have owned Alfa's for "Light - Years" and am unwilling to simply abandon them, despite the competition being somewhat better and cheaper to maintain. If you have the right facilities, and a good indie, it is not difficult. But if you are going to go that far, there is so much more you can do to get the best from this engine - the potential of which is so under - exploited!

I never thought I would own a 159, 3.2 JTS as I took a front wheel drive version for a test drive and was thoroughly unimpressed by it. The weight of the car, coupled with the front wheel drive made it an ungainly creature, alien to the Alfa's I previously owned.

However, I did end up with a Q4, 159 which is a completely different animal.

Being a thoroughly bored retired prototype engineer, initial history in mechanical engineering, I moved quickly through to Electronic/Broadcast/High power Engineering, I needed a challenge. And this engine is it!

My posts are for those who have an interest in Alfa's and what historically they represented. Not for those who will be rid as soon as the first major bill comes in - and that would be pretty soon with the prices Alfa now charge.

However, this engine is fascinating - well to me at least. There was so little I could do with my twin cam engines, they were so good. And the Busso's I have owned, simply illustrate how Alfa attracted the calibre of engineers, so talented, they can only be viewed as geniuses.

But the 3.2 JTS is not an Alfa engine, although I believe it has the potential to be great. So really, I am only looking at issues that I feel limit its potential.

I have looked into various windage plates and their purpose, not just plates, but screens. I have had conflicting advice wrt plates versus screens and indeed there is no clear answer as to which is better.

The local engineering shop I am using suggests plates are better as screens retain the oil for longer. But an American Company, advises screens, particularly for reduced losses at high revs.

Although I have had my windage plate extended, I am beginning to think, for this engine, a screen would be better. My rational for saying this is, Blow - by products are greatest at high revs. Combine this with the spent oil from the spray jets and it is a recipe for atomized oil/hydrocarbons/water vapour. In this form, I believe a screen would be better suited to recombining it to liquid form than a metal plate would. It may well be, it results in an extra delay in the oil returning to the sump. But it ought to reduce the likelihood of these products being re - cycled into windage.

The capacity of the sump is only one issue. A major issue is the fact that the drainage channels from the heads, exhaust the oil above the windage plate, directly in line with the rotating crankshaft and their journals. These drainage channels are cavernous, capable of draining away much greater quantities of oil from the heads, than actually they do. This causes the oil to flow down the walls in a thin film/skin. So thin, the reciprocating journals have no trouble pulling them into windage, along with the spent oil from the spray jets, cooling the con - rods.

This action causes considerable aeration of the oil along with the blow - by products.My solution is to have aluminium plates welded to the sump, where the drains exhaust down the sides of the block, thus carrying the returning oil to below the windage plate/tray, eliminating the risk of it being pulled into windage.

Expert advice, particularly from very helpful American Specialists, suggest the low capacity of oil in this engine leads to a very short resting period, whereby entrained oil does not have sufficient time to "Rest" and escape suspension resulting reduced hydraulic function and effectively reducing the "Working Viscosity" of the oil.

The "Hydraulic Function" is essential to the chain tensioner system and to how accurate the VVT system is. Dissolved and entrained air will precipitate out of the oil, much more readily, wherever there are flow restrictions. So the block restrictions only serve to make matters worse.

As my engine is being rebuilt, I should get some idea of its "as new" oil consumption. Prior to this, at 113,000 miles it is difficult to pin the consumption down. Valve Guides certainly must have contributed. But I am also suspicious that, on the evidence of deposits on the heads it is due to over heating and the oil vaporizing. I have no evidence for this, other than anecdotally people invariably stated synthetic oils are more prone to being burnt off in the combustion process. If this is true, then I attribute the excess temperature to the Manifold cats. Indeed, when this process began, the very first decision I took was to remove them and fit, in this instance, a pair of Auto Delta headers.

Anyway, thanks for your post. It has given me an opportunity to think again about the issue of windage plate as opposed to windage screen. I think I shall replace my plate with an extended screen. Logically, I think it will be more effective in dealing with blow - by/ spray jet products. Particularly as the spray jets only function at high revs, where blow - by products are at their greatest. I have a set of the latest design spray jets, which operate at a higher pressure than the originals.

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Well,I have the FWD 3.2 estate and it is just what I wanted as a father (soon of 2) and a dog owner. I previously had 146 ti 2.0 twin spark for 11 years and it served me well. If I ditch the 159 for anything else,it would be a petrol Stelvio.
I saw your tread for the modified 3.2 and there were some interesting things there. Kudos!
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Well,I have the FWD 3.2 estate and it is just what I wanted as a father (soon of 2) and a dog owner. I previously had 146 ti 2.0 twin spark for 11 years and it served me well. If I ditch the 159 for anything else,it would be a petrol Stelvio.
I saw your tread for the modified 3.2 and there were some interesting things there. Kudos!
No denying, the 159 is a great car. Perhaps the one I test drove at Leicester wasnít a good example. Not having had a 4 wheel drive car before, I hadnít appreciated just how different the character of the car was. Having a 3.0 GTV and a 1.9 GT. made the comparison that much more dramatic. I canít see me having a Stelvio, but I do hope they are the start of Alfaís renaissance.

Cheers
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Well,I have the FWD 3.2 estate and it is just what I wanted as a father (soon of 2) and a dog owner. I previously had 146 ti 2.0 twin spark for 11 years and it served me well. If I ditch the 159 for anything else,it would be a petrol Stelvio.
I saw your tread for the modified 3.2 and there were some interesting things there. Kudos!
Red - Sorry for being so rude in omitting to wish you and your partner well for the the up and coming birth of your second child.

Kind Regards,

Brian.
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Originally Posted by ivo_red View Post
Well,I have the FWD 3.2 estate and it is just what I wanted as a father (soon of 2) and a dog owner. I previously had 146 ti 2.0 twin spark for 11 years and it served me well. If I ditch the 159 for anything else,it would be a petrol Stelvio.
I saw your tread for the modified 3.2 and there were some interesting things there. Kudos!
Red - Sorry for being so rude in omitting to wish you and your partner well for the the up and coming birth of your second child.

Kind Regards,

Brian.
Thanks,mate!Fingers crossed that everything is ok.Now that is priority #1. Cheers
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