TBi Turbo upgrade - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 60 Old 03-02-19 Thread Starter
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TBi Turbo upgrade

Now with Quaife installed, it could be time for some real power.
Turbo K04 upgraded 1750 TBi/ QV
Current turbo is still fine though.
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I'm sure this has been debated to death and I'm a defender of the M32 often , my own TBI is remapped to 240 without issue , however if your adding a K04 Turbo and re-mapping I'd imagine you'd be looking at getting up to 280 - 300...this would be the point I'd be nervous, I also think the Giulietta TBI has some small small changes to stock internals.
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(Post Link) post #3 of 60 Old 03-02-19 Thread Starter
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GQV have lower compression (9.25 vs TBi 9.50). No idea why.
A stock VW 1.8T 150HP can be tuned to 260-300HP easy without changing any internals.
Can’t see why the 1750 Tbi should have issues going same route.
Bigger turbo, decat, ECU map and bingo.
I don’t care about the M32. It could hold unless car is hammered everday.
Anyway, new bearings fitted is an easy job.
Could also upgrade with new M32 endcase and 62 mm bearings. Not that costly.

Last edited by hdvp; 03-02-19 at 16:29.
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This is upgraded K04 ,no stock K04 .I think for 159 tbi stock K04 and real remap is enaugh.250-60/420Nm max.
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(Post Link) post #5 of 60 Old 04-02-19 Thread Starter
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Maybe stock GQV K04 turbo (5304 970 0090) would be a wiser upgrade.

https://www.turbomarkt.de/Turbolader...o-18-Liter-TBi

Cheaper to
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i can offer k04 modified for euro5 engine which we have in 159 + chip too
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(Post Link) post #7 of 60 Old 04-02-19 Thread Starter
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After reading some more on the subject, it seems like an overall bad idea to upgrade OEM turbo on the 159 TBI.
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The stock turbo of 159 models, or 1750 tbi 200hp version is a k03 turbo not the k04.

My next modification is put a k04 modified and remap it for around 330hp without meth.

if you check the Revlimit website you will see a Brera 1750tbi with stage3 and you can saw the modifications for achieve 350/360hp
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(Post Link) post #9 of 60 Old 04-02-19 Thread Starter
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Looking forward, and good luck.
I will pass..

Last edited by hdvp; 05-02-19 at 06:41.
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I think as long as the gearbox has been upgraded (F40?) the engine would be fine running a stock K04 turbo. I don't think I would want to push it any higher than that though, but happy to be proved wrong
 
(Post Link) post #12 of 60 Old 05-02-19 Thread Starter
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The M32 wont break down instantly just because a Giulietta QV turbo is installed (actually an upgraded/hybrid K03 turbo and not as such K04 turbo)
I know @acab is selling these "K04" turbos and apparently have it installed on his 159 TBi (or is it Brera)
But in the lack of his missing documentation, and reading some of Ian Lusso's 159 Tbi Turbo post gave me second thoughts, and until a full succesfull build is shown in details, I'll pass.
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Originally Posted by hdvp View Post
The M32 wont break down instantly just because a Giulietta QV turbo is installed (actually an upgraded/hybrid K03 turbo and not as such K04 turbo)
I know @acab is selling these "K04" turbos and apparently have it installed on his 159 TBi (or is it Brera)
But in the lack of his missing documentation, and reading some of Ian Lusso's 159 Tbi Turbo post gave me second thoughts, and until a full succesfull build is shown in details, I'll pass.
I know it won't break down instantly but for a gearbox which is designed to take a max of 320nm of torque, it would wear very quickly if your engine is running 400+nm which is why I would rather start thinking about upgrading the gearbox first before chasing the big numbers.
 
(Post Link) post #14 of 60 Old 05-02-19 Thread Starter
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M32 Gearbox ? WG Motorworks

Quote:
It is commonly thought that high torque output causes the bearings to fail on remapped cars etc. – but this simply is not the case. We have cars running 350-400lbft without issues, yet we can see low output engines (1.3 CDTI / 1.8 non-turbo etc) experience issues. It is true that the greater the power, the more heat will be generated, but a high percentage of the cars we repair are run-of-the-mill cars, which still run into gearbox issues. Essentially, doing long distances on the motorways, during which 95% of the time is spent in 6th Gear. Transfering the engines torque all the way down the input shaft, across to the 6th Gear (closest to the end on the output shaft), and then back down to the final drive put maximum load on this small top bearing.
That's some 470-540 Nm..
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M32 Gearbox ? WG Motorworks



That's some 470-540 Nm..
Crazy, I personally wouldn't want to be running that high torque on gearbox which is designed for a max of 320nm but each to their own.
 
(Post Link) post #16 of 60 Old 08-02-19 Thread Starter
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Only 699,- Euro for an upgraded K03 Turbo - up to 280 Hp
https://www.autoteile-carparts.de/tu...ps-53039880149

Anyone know how much time a garage would need to change this?

Last edited by hdvp; 08-02-19 at 17:29.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdvp View Post
Only 699,- Euro for an upgraded K03 Turbo - up to 280 Hp
https://www.autoteile-carparts.de/tu...ps-53039880149

Anyone know how much time a garage would need to change this?
i think it's a wast of money buying a k03 turbo instead a k04 turbo. The engine runs perfectly fine with k04.

But like i said that my opinion
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(Post Link) post #18 of 60 Old 08-02-19 Thread Starter
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Linked turbo is K03 hybrid with larger compressor wheel - should be more than enough.

"Revlimit" use a K03 turbo
Alfa Romeo Brera 1.75TBi - K03 Hybrid Setup

Last edited by hdvp; 14-02-19 at 07:08.
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Yes its enough but for the price you will pay for that turbo you can purchase a k04 that can handle 380hp and you can make more power without too much pressure, so your turbo will last longer

Enviado do meu SM-G965F através do Tapatalk
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(Post Link) post #20 of 60 Old 09-02-19 Thread Starter
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That kind of power would be more than difficult to put on the ground on the heavy 159. A Quaife ATB would be neccessary, but still not enough to prevent massive wheelspin in the lower gears.
I had major issues on my car just with Novitec Poverjet 3 @lvl7 and full decat (HP/NM unknown)
It’s so much much better now with the Quife ATB installed, but not everyone wants to fork out 1200 Eur for this.

Personally I would never want more than 300 hp / 450 Nm out of the 159 tbi 1750 engine.
You can’t just compare with the power potential of the GQV 1750 engine with its lower compression, maybe different pistons, changed cam timing and who knows what.
Even the Guiletta Squadra Corse is below 300 hp - most likely the “safe” limit.
I always thought a bigger turbo would spool slower and give less torque at low rpm, something not fun in a heavy sedan. Also that kind of power could most likely put engine, gearbox, clutch and dual mass at risk.

Looking forward to your project and dyno results.

Last edited by hdvp; 10-02-19 at 17:08.
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The quaife won't stop wheel spin at all when it's just due to excess power....they just stop the wheels spinning at different rates so you dont loose power via the open diff from the spinning wheel. Grippier tyres are about the only thing that will stop that.
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(Post Link) post #22 of 60 Old 09-02-19 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfaitalia View Post
The quaife won't stop wheel spin at all when it's just due to excess power....
I don’t need to discuss that. But yes it does. I know what it does to my car, as I have it installed.
Before, if accelerating hard I had massive wheelspin at just one wheel in both first and second gear, and car would nearly stand still in first gear. This is were the E-Q2 open diff is really bad.
With Quaife ATB installed this symtom is all gone. End of discussion.

Read all about it here:
https://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/quaife/

@Guili experienced something similar in his G with 272BHP and 440Nm
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Originally Posted by Guili View Post
How the car drives

1st gear isn't great...I don't like front wheel drive cars for this very reason. The eDiff struggles to limit wheelspin and then it sometimes just gives up and completely cuts in and the revs drops then climbs again. Second gear is much the same...wheelspin from 3000rpm to 5000rpm on smooth roads. 3rd gear is where it all comes together, it pulls HARD right through the rev range, 4th is the same and then its all smooth sailing.
Back to turbo discussion.

Last edited by hdvp; 12-02-19 at 08:06.
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(Post Link) post #23 of 60 Old 06-03-19 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by acab View Post
i can offer k04 modified for euro5 engine which we have in 159 + chip too
@acab you are very hard to get any information from - and you don’t like questions asked what you offer.
Why dont you write some more about it here?
In our PM dialog I got a little wiser, but maybe other forum members would like some more info.

Here goes: @acab
You have a 4C turbo from a new engine from factory. Turbo was installed, tested on bench and dismounted from engine.
You then modify “2 pipes for pressure control” to make it fit the 159 TBi
No further mods. It should then be a direct fit and give GQV power without ECU map.

Not sure about your comment “you need wastegate actuator from 159”

According to this german forum https://www.alfa-romeo-portal.com/fo...r-k03-und-k04/ some 3 production versions of the Alfa Romeo K04 turbo exist.

Quote:
Basically, a distinction between K03 and K04 loader.

Both turbo's are basically the same in construction and also welded directly to the manifold, which is identical in both cases.
The manufacturer of the turbo can vary. Currently I know Borg Warner, 3K and IHI.

The difference between K03 and K04 is in small but fine details.

The compressor inlet on the K03 is minimally narrower than on the K04. In addition, the compressor housing is smaller, as is the exhaust housing. In addition, you can clearly see that the exhaust gas turbine is smaller in the K03 than in the K04.

Then I noticed that the K03 turbo have a blue nameplate and the K04 turbo an orange.
In addition, they can be distinguished by the part number.
K03 turbos start with the number 53 03 and K04 turbos with the number 53 04 .

It may also happen that a K04 has an imprint "K04" in the casting between the manifold and turbo flange. One of mine has it, with the other it was furbished.

Interim conclusion: Due to the identical construction and manifold, it is possible to replace the K03 in Alfa 159, Brera and Spider by a K04.

Otherwise, it would be possible in case of emergency to install a K03 loader on a Giulietta QV, which, however, results in a loss of performance, since K03 loaders are only designed for 200hp.


K03 loaders were installed in the Alfa 159, Brera and Spider and offer 200hp

K04 loaders were installed in the Giulietta and in the 4C and offer 230hp - 253hp


K03 Turbo

Year 2008 -

OEM Spare Part Number: 55224275
BW spare part number: 5303 988 0149
Power: 147KW / 200PS

Year 2010 -
OEM Spare Part Number: 55232225
BW spare part number: 5303 988 0149
Power: 147KW / 200PS



K03 Turbo JTD

Year 2014 -
OEM Spare Part Number: 55265266
BW spare part number: 5303 970 0457
Power: 155KW / 210PS
Engine: 2.2 JTD


K04 Turbo

BJ 2010 - Prototype (known for problems)
OEM part no .: 55231460
BW spare part number: 5304 950 0065
Performance: no details found

BJ 2011 - revised version of the prototype
OEM Spare Part Number: 55224276
BW spare part number: 5304 970 0090
Power: 169KW / 230PS

BJ 2012 - new version for Alfa 4C with more power
OEM part number: 55253383
BW spare part number: 5304 970 0185
Power: 186KW / 253PS

BJ 2013 - revised version for Alfa 4C and new Giulietta QV
OEM Spare Part Number: 55259115
BW spare part number: 5304 970 0185
Power: 186KW / 253PS
According to @acab , the 2011 GQV KO4 turbo should be a 100% fit on the 159 TBi - no modding of any kind.
Not sure about wastegate actuator still...

Doesn’t look that difficult to change the turbo..
https://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/turbo..._1750tbi.shtml

I’m so ready to pull the trigger on a turbo upgrade, but need to be 100% certain I order a K04 that actually fits.

Last edited by hdvp; 07-03-19 at 05:30.
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hdvp, you talk too much
too many questions.

i offered you bolt-on solution
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(Post Link) post #25 of 60 Old 07-03-19 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acab View Post
hdvp, you talk too much
too many questions.
I ask questions to get wiser

Wonder if the K03 turbo in the 159 Tbi is the old "K03" or the newer version - often (wrongfully) reffered to as "K03s" or "K03 Sport")

ALL KO3=COMP-35mm EXH-39mm / 12 blades

K03SPORT=COMP-38/39mm-EXH 39mm / 8 blades

I tend to beleive the K03 turbo in the 159 TBi is actual the "K03s"

Any one have measurements?

Last edited by hdvp; 07-03-19 at 09:48.
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