Cold Hard Run Problem Coluld Not Solved - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 4Likes
  • 1 Post By Mirafioriman
  • 1 Post By johnnyroper
  • 1 Post By johnnyroper
  • 1 Post By johnnyroper
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 15 Old 15-12-18 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116

Member car:

147 & 159

Cold Hard Run Problem Coluld Not Solved

Hi, (Alfa Romeo 159 1.9 JTDM 150HP-2006)

There are lots of topics about cold hard run/start problem. I read all of them, tried suggestions but my problem not solved.

A few years ago I post same topic, I thought the problem was solved, but the same problem persists.

I really need help to my problem. Thank you very much in advance.


My Problem:

At cold weather (about 10 degree or below), my 159 does not start/run at first or second try. it cracks hard but not run.
it always runs at 3. or 4. try. Sometimes more...

(Note: mechanics could not find the problem but they do not have a pro diagnostic tool.)

But after it start to run, I stop it that moment and try to run it again, and it always quickly/easily runs :S it only run hard if I do not use car more than 1 day at cold weathers. and if it starts to run, I stop it (to try again if it will start or not), and it always runs easily after first hard run.

At hot weather (about 20 degre or more) it always starts at first run.

I changed battery (exide agm 70 Ah), glow plugs (bosch), fuel filter, glow plug preheater relay module, I placed a non return valve to the output of fuel tank (to stop the return of fuel to the tank). And I checked glow plugs with multimeter and all glow plugs are ok. I also cheked the glow plug's sockets if there is 12V at all sockets. They were ok too...

I checked with multiecu scan diagnostic tool. there was only one error. "preheaitng control unit (feedback)-P0683" I cleaned. I guess it was a temporary error. A year ago I was replaced the glow plug preheater relay module. So I do not think that its faulty. Also after cleaning the error yestarday, today I tried to run it at this morning. problem is still going on (there is no error at diagnostic).

Today while checking it with multiecu scan, there was a different readings between injectors. (its screenshot is in attachment-please check it)

inj.correction cyl.1 = 1.66 m3/i
inj.correction cyl.2 = 0.72 m3/i
inj.correction cyl.3 = -3.23 m3/i
inj.correction cyl.4 = 0.85 m3/i

I guess there is a problem with 3. injector. I do not know what I am reading with this results but I only guess that all four injector's results must be nearly same. I am right ? :S 3th one is also negative... is there anything weird ? :/ and I am wondering if there is a relation between my problem and 3th inj. correction result (-3.23) ?


I look forward to your suggestions, thanks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg _20181215_204958.JPG (35.2 KB, 22 views)
hhuurrkkaann is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: Getting There!
AO Member
 
Mirafioriman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
County: -
Posts: 827
I would perhaps check injector 3 multi plug. Quite a common issue on early engines.

Not sure if this will be causing the cold start issue though.

Have you checked the fuel pressure?
hhuurrkkaann likes this.
Mirafioriman is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wiltshire
County: -
Posts: 2,062
Check the swirl flaps I suspect you have at least 1 broke off and been ingested. Worth a compression check aswell.
Injector correction is not always a sign injector is at fault it is more about cylinder health,the ecu uses correction to compensate for a cylinder that is not performing properly.
johnnyroper is offline  
(Post Link) post #4 of 15 Old 16-12-18 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116

Member car:

147 & 159

Thanks for replies.

/Mirafioriman/ I checked fuel pressure. it was 6.5 bar before running. And after run its about 300 bar. I replaced all plugs of injectors.

/johnnyroper/ You could be right. Because in a topic, somebody was talking about same problem with mine. And after replacing manifold its problem was solved. So maybe damaged swirl flaps could cause this. I guess swirl flaps do not open at low rpm. So if one or more swirl broken or maybe melted, it is always open while first run. But after first hard run, it always easily runs at second. So why broken swirl does not affect second run ? or at summer it always runs at first try. Do you have any idea for this ? wednesday my mechanic will clean intake manifold so while cleaning I will check the swirls.

thanks for sparing time...
hhuurrkkaann is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wiltshire
County: -
Posts: 2,062
A diesel needs heat to ignite the fuel,this is generated by the compression and for cold starting aided by the glow plugs. If swirl has been ingested damaging internals compression could be reduced which in turn reduces the heat build up aswell as insufficient air in the system for the fuel being injected.
hhuurrkkaann likes this.
johnnyroper is offline  
(Post Link) post #6 of 15 Old 16-12-18 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116

Member car:

147 & 159

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyroper View Post
A diesel needs heat to ignite the fuel,this is generated by the compression and for cold starting aided by the glow plugs. If swirl has been ingested damaging internals compression could be reduced which in turn reduces the heat build up aswell as insufficient air in the system for the fuel being injected.
I guess you might right about one or more broken swirl flap could cause my problem. I will cleaned my intake manifold soon and will share the result. If swirls are broken, will I replace my manifold completely? I could not find swirl flap set for 159 in my country. Sellers are telling that its selling completely with manifold. I guess 159 1.9's engine is nearly same with fiat doblo 1.9 . if I have any problem with swirl flaps, do you suggest to replace it with any other brands like fiat ...

Any do you suggest to remove (cancel) swirl flaps with stoppers selling in the link below?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/chea...6-e4408e2c0736

Last edited by hhuurrkkaann; 16-12-18 at 10:57.
hhuurrkkaann is offline  
(Post Link) post #7 of 15 Old 16-12-18 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116

Member car:

147 & 159

I searched today and alfa 159 intake manifold is fully same with car brands using 1.9 Z19DTH engine. I am sharing them below.

ALFA ROMEO
ALFA 147
ALFA 156
ALFA 159
GT
FIAT
CROMA (194)
STILO
OPEL
ASTRA H
SIGNUM
VECTRA C
ZAFIRA B
SAAB
9-3 (YS3)
9-5
VAUXHALL
ASTRA MK V
SIGNUM
VECTRA C
ZAFIRA Mk II
hhuurrkkaann is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wiltshire
County: -
Posts: 2,062
No don’t replace it just split the aluminium part off the plastic plenom and give it all a really good clean.
With the aluminium part break any remaining flaps off,remove the plastic cover off the bottom and remove all the gears and spindles. Tap holes to M6 I think it is and fit some cap screws with o rings under the heads to seal well.
When you refit it all together just make sure you leave the flap motor on manifold and plugged back in.
hhuurrkkaann likes this.
johnnyroper is offline  
(Post Link) post #9 of 15 Old 17-12-18 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116

Member car:

147 & 159

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyroper View Post
No don’t replace it just split the aluminium part off the plastic plenom and give it all a really good clean.
With the aluminium part break any remaining flaps off,remove the plastic cover off the bottom and remove all the gears and spindles. Tap holes to M6 I think it is and fit some cap screws with o rings under the heads to seal well.
When you refit it all together just make sure you leave the flap motor on manifold and plugged back in.

I will share result after cleanin intake manifold with flaps.

Thanks for your help Johnny.
hhuurrkkaann is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters, aircon works!
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Posts: 1,743
Garage

Member car:

147 Sport Q2

Mega-thread about swirl flap repairs on 147 16v and 159 16v.
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...e-159-1-a.html

Swirl flaps that enter the combustion space often bend valves, so they don't seat properly, so compression loss.
Your injector correction factors exactly resemble mine, which had 2 bent valves on cyl#3 from swirl flap damage.

However at no point was my car hard to start. It just had a horrid rattle.

The horror of swirl flaps
Autolusso - Swirl Flap Delete

The good news is that since fixing mine. with deleted swirl flaps and blanked EGR, in early 2016 it's been perfect.

--
Regards
Tony
halftone is offline  
Status: New 2.4Ti has arrived
AO Member
 
Evoxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: United Kingdom
County: Worcestershire
Posts: 112
Garage
You can temporarily lock the flaps all fully open by disconnecting the control arm and fixing it over towards the cambelt side (cable ties do nicely) - this will generally confirm if you have dodgy / clogged / busted flaps.

Worth cleaning regardless if you can
Evoxer is offline  
Status: Getting There!
AO Member
 
Mirafioriman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
County: -
Posts: 827
Unfortunately you can't lock the flaps open on the 1.9 only on the 2.4
Mirafioriman is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wiltshire
County: -
Posts: 2,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoxer View Post
You can temporarily lock the flaps all fully open by disconnecting the control arm and fixing it over towards the cambelt side (cable ties do nicely) - this will generally confirm if you have dodgy / clogged / busted flaps.

Worth cleaning regardless if you can <img src="https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Biggrin" class="inlineimg" />
As said the plastic manifold on 1.9 can’t be locked as they are driven by a concealed arm driving flaps with a gear mechanism.
johnnyroper is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 15 Old 22-12-18 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 116

Member car:

147 & 159

Hi again. I checked swirl flaps while cleaning the intake manifold. and sent a photo of it. I guess my intake manifold was replaced before. so all flaps were new and in good condition. my problem is not flaps I guess.

my mechanic told me to check the compression of engine. he was telling that low compression affects hard cold run. as I told before my car always starts hard only at first try. after hard running it starts really quick. so I told him that, "if I have less compression, why does it starts normally after first hard run ? ", but he insisted me to check it. and then he checked it (I was not with him). then he told me the results. 1 and 3th cylinders compressions are about 270-300 psi, second one is 100 and 4th is=120 psi. So he is telling that there is low compression at 2-4 th cylinders and that causes to my problem. solution that he suggested is; "revision of engine" and its really expensive at my country. I do not think that my problem is compression. and results are not too low I guess. my engine's torque result is aprox 450NM (no dpf- with software). I guess I can not have this torque with a low compressed engine. what you think? :/


I heard that, alfa romeo regenerated starter motor. I do not it's regenaration date. maybe I have a low compress because of starter. my 159 is 2006 model. so is there a new, more powerful starter motor for 159 ? and if you know there is a new regenareted one, could you share the part number of it and also the old (mine) one ?

I also shared the swirl flap photos of mine.


thanks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Adsjjjjj.jpg (124.0 KB, 13 views)
hhuurrkkaann is offline  
Status: -
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wiltshire
County: -
Posts: 2,062
It’s not the flaps from that manifold but how do you know old manifold didn’t push flaps through the engine?
Also those compression readings are all low and it will explain the hard starting. You want to be seeing more like 350-400 psi and for all cylinders to be within 10% of each other.

Try a squirt of oil down bore and re check compression if they come up it’s rings/bore issue if they remain same looking at top end valve/seats etc.

I am gonna assume previous manifold done damage but previous owner just replaced the manifold
hhuurrkkaann likes this.
johnnyroper is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa 159, Brera & 946 Spider

Tags
cold , coluld , hard , problem , run , solved

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome