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159 Tbi compared..

25K views 130 replies 13 participants last post by  hdvp 
#1 · (Edited)
159 Tbi compared to GTI class

Did some mid acceleration videos, testing performance of my Alfa 159 TBi with Novitec Powerjet@lvl7.

Several attempts were made - and no "downhill" cheating.

Data and charts attached - all data are found from zeperfs.com and automobile-catalog.com.
Compared to these listed "GTI" cars it does pretty good in mid acceleration.

Alfa Romeo 159 TBi
Alfa Romeo Giulietta QV
Alfa Romeo Giulietta QV TCT
Ford Fiesta ST
Golf 7 GTI

60-100 km/h in 4th gear: 4.6 sec


80-120 km/h in 4th gear: 4.8 sec


80-120 km/h in 5th gear: 6.1 sec
 

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#5 · (Edited)
It's in the sheet..


Great, comprehensive comparison. I am on the lookout for a 2nd hand Powerjet for my TBI as coming from a MK5 GTI the TBI feels a bit slow in comparison! If it can match the performance of a MK7 GTI I will be very impressed. If I can't source a Powerjet I will probably go down the custom remap route which should probably see even higher gains.
"Feel" simply doesn't justice how fast a car really is. Facts and numbers do.
From 0-200 km/h my Novitec 159 Tbi is slower than a Golf 7 GTI. But it's just as fresh in all mid accelerations scenarios.
Worst scenarios with the 159 is from a total standstill where it got issues putting the power to the tarmac. It's heavy and the diff is ****.
 
G
#4 ·
Great, comprehensive comparison. I am on the lookout for a 2nd hand Powerjet for my TBI as coming from a MK5 GTI the TBI feels a bit slow in comparison! If it can match the performance of a MK7 GTI I will be very impressed. If I can't source a Powerjet I will probably go down the custom remap route which should probably see even higher gains.
 
#7 · (Edited)
If I can't source a Powerjet I will probably go down the custom remap route which should probably see even higher gains.
Custom remap could give slightly higher hp gains. I've seen claimed figures of 250 hp /400 Nm.
The main difference is a map can increase the rev limit from stock 5750 til some 6350 RPM, which a box can't do.

Squadra tuning ECU maps stops at 232 hp / 382 Nm for the 159 Tbi.
Apperently they won't consider it safe to go any higher on this engine.
 
#14 ·
Also , looking at figures this morning from the TBI vs Guilietta QV and the claimed weight between them isn't as much as people make out. I think the TBI was around 1470 KG and the GQV 1440 KG. I know the TBI underwent a weight reduction compared to the other models and shed around 100 KG in the process.

So in theory , a re-mapped 159 TBI with 235 HP and similar in weight should be hitting almost the same low 7 0 - 100 numbers that the GQV does right?

My car is re-mapped and certainly feels quick to 60 , might be time to whip out that OBD Fusion performance test later on and do some numbers...
 
G
#15 ·
I think the 159 TBI is 1430KG and the Guilietta QV is 1320KG so over 100 kilos difference or the difference between having a large passenger in the car with you!

What figures is your car before and after remap?
 
#18 ·
It's re-mapped to 235 BHP , and yes good point on the wheel spin and getting the power down mine sometimes has issues spinning in 1st and 2nd put more so in the wet and what tyres you have on and condition matters a lot...It's not a constant problem though only when giving it some throttle and you expect it to come then...
 
#19 ·
I like this type of information, it's all very interesting. Makes me wonder what my remapped 2.4 ti is producing as I have never had a fiesta ST able to keep up with me off a roundabout or from 3 gear upwards, and many have tried.
I followed a new black Giulietta TBi a few weeks back and kept leaving it off roundabouts. I let him pass and then followed him and he wasn't as quick despite his best efforts. It think he was 237 hp from the factory but a lot lighter than me.
We gave each other the thumbs up in appreciation when we split directions.
 
#21 ·
Both have 200 HP stock but I think the TBI might be a shade lighter due to the weight reduction Alfa done on the model , it would be down to the quality of the re-map and the driver really as they are close...the TBI has a lot of Torque as well and it's available from straight off the revs too...

In the spirit of this thread , when I'm out on Sunday morning I'll stick on my Fusion app and record what 0 - 60 time she can do with the re-map.
 
G
#22 ·
Just checked the specs and the 2.4 is 1585KG vs 1430KG of the TBI. So over 150KG difference. Great, look forward to seeing it! Can't help but feel the 0-60 of the TBI would be much better if you could reach 60 in 2nd. Probably knocking off about half a second at least.
 
#23 ·
My Ti was originally 210hp stock and was lightened by Alfa from the Lusso model.
I don't even try 0 to 60 as my 159 only spins the wheels in first and if damp or wet it spins in second. Also I don't want to wreck the clutch and drive train. I only floor it when required in third gear at 2000 rpm and upward. The torque at that point is tremendous all the way up to red, and if on a duel carriage way or motorway, put in 4th or 5th depending on speed, and see what can come past, normal only something very expensive.
 
#24 ·
For those of you interested in whats it's possible to make with a Tbi engine with a downpipe, stock air filter box with BMC air filter, magnaflow sports kat, novitec rear boxes and the rest of exhaust system stock and raised the rev limit to real 6500rpm, now the second gear can make 100km/h (60mph):blabla:



It's possible to make a little bit more power, around 270hp and 420nm of torque or higher, because the clutch can handle with 450nm.

Now i fitted on my car a exhaust valve box in the middle of the car and a complete 70mm stainless steel exhaust line with 200cell sports kat.

When i have the last result of the dyno i will post here.
 
#38 · (Edited)
For those of you interested in whats it's possible to make with a Tbi engine with a downpipe, stock air filter box with BMC air filter, magnaflow sports kat, novitec rear boxes and the rest of exhaust system stock and raised the rev limit to real 6500rpm, now the second gear can make 100km/h (60mph):blabla:
It's possible to make a little bit more power, around 270hp and 420nm of torque or higher, because the clutch can handle with 450nm.
Now i fitted on my car a exhaust valve box in the middle of the car and a complete 70mm stainless steel exhaust line with 200cell sports kat.
When i have the last result of the dyno i will post here.
Would love to see you do some real life mid acceleration runs and post videos and times here:

60-100 in 3 gear
60-100 in 4 gear
80- 120 in 4 gear
80 -120 in 5 gear

Do them proper on flat road. Then we can compare the Novitec Powerjet and your remap - and the Golf 7 GTI.

I stopped believing in dyno results. They are in 99% cases not comparable.
 

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#27 ·
Wrong....
As long as you’re not doing 0-100 like a mental and keep it over 2500 rpm especially in 5th and 6th when accelerating hard, theres no issue what so ever with the M32.
Ask Gus at alfatune......iirc he’ve done some M32 equipped cars with +300hp / 500 nm. Will try to find his post...
 
#29 ·
No he's not really wrong as such , yes the M32 gearbox is known for it's weaknesses but that doesn't mean if it is maintained and driven correctly that it can't handle more power. I think it is rated up to a max of 420 NM , the standard oil recommended Alfa was 2 liters when it should actually have 3 liters and a better quality GL4 oil like Redline , also oil should be changed every 30k miles , they also recommended that the TBI has an oil change at 21k and it's actually more like 8k , they also overlooked the protection on the turbo piping...so lots they got wrong that owners now know about and should be caring for correctly.

Mine had a rebuild at 60k before I bought it and since I've had it I've maintained all those components , gearbox gives no trouble and car has been re-mapped for over a year now.

You have to know how to drive it correctly , planting your foot in 6th and in very low revs is not only bad for this car (Any Turbo car) it's just plain silly...drop her into 4th and higher revs and move up in the sweet spot , be aware of the cars power bands and long term damage and you'll be grand...Not the best gearbox no , but shouldn't be a game over situation when it comes to tuning the TBI so long as you know what your doing.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Right so there is nothing wrong with the box despite the very high failure rate in pretty much every car (not just Alfa s) that they are bolted to and the many that have failed on stock members cars on here. And you have to drive in such a way that it's gentle on the box...yeah..great...sounds like an ideal candidate for a tuned engine..lol. You should be able to drive is how you feel and it should be able to take full throttle in any gear...or it's not really fit for purpose . And yours was rebuilt at just 60 k. Yet it's ok to hande more power. Great logic. And exactly why I chose a 159 with an F40....which has had one oil change in 143,000 and its as tight as a drum on a tuning boxed 2.0.
 
#33 · (Edited)
#35 ·
LOL!...

...and just to set the record...I have the 2.0 JTDm (Euro 5) not the 1.9 or 2.4 (Euro 4) so by then they had massively improved and have none (relatively)of the DPF, swirl flap, EGR issues the earlier ones had. Not that any of that would stop me having a 2.4...great motor. I too like the TBi and would have preferred one (test drove two) but could not justify (or afford to be honest) the far lower MPG with the miles I do. I did however prefer in the instant torque of the 2.0 over the slightly laggy bottom end of the TBi. My car pushes out 360nm of torques as stock at 1750rpm...your TBi stock gives 320 at an, admittedly, impressive 1400rpm. With the tuning I now have the same horses as a stock Tbi...but 425MN of torque. The response from just of idle is amazing!

...yes off topic I know but I could not less the diesel slagging go unanswered!! And yes it is the cars fault....yes routine maintenance is required on all cars to keep them running well and all (most) cars have issues. Not so many need more gearbox oil than they came with (dont forget most modern gearboxes NEVER have a scheduled oil change these days as the oil lasts the life of the engine (my 170,000 miles Merc CLK 200K for example....changing it now will cause more problems that it cures!!))and a rebuild and 60 - 80 k!!


Each to his own and Ill leave it there!
 
G
#36 ·
Despite the M32 being an inherent weakness of the TBI, it really doesn't cost the earth to resolve. A & S Clutch Technology in Halifax change them all day long and only charge £275 to replace the bearings and the box will be like new again.

If you compare this to the potential problems lurking in a modern diesel engine (DPF, EGR, swirl flaps, DMF etc) it really does put this once in an owner lifetime cost into perspective. I say once in an owner lifetime as most people don't keep their cars any longer than 5 years.

My car is on 74K and the box is perfect *touches wood* and if it started failing tomorrow I would happily pay £275 knowing that it would be good for another 9 years. Of course tuning the engine will see the failure rate increase but even if this meant changing the bearings every 50K compared to 80K I don't see this as a massive problem.
 
#37 ·
I wasn't slagging off Diesels , they have their purpose and if I had to do huge miles I'd consider one but not for a drivers car not for me anyway despite the NM numbers they just don't feel the same as petrols or sounds the same and that is a big thing for me, but I've nothing against them as such.

And you said yourself above , sure look at the issues the early models had!... There's a limit to what I'd buy vs reliability (RX-8 for example ) but the TBI gearbox honestly doesn't worry me enough to turn me off the car it's just something to be aware of and if the box fails despite that sure I'll rebuild it, no big deal.

I read that the 2 liters of oil was something to do with Alfa trying to lower emissions or come within standards but they shouldn't be doing that at the expense of owners or the cars needs, the main issue early on the TVI with re-calls was blown turbo chargers due to the wrong oil and wrong intervals they had an awful lot of re-calls on this...In fact , the engine itself is a little flawed it shouldn't require an oil change every 8k miles but history has now thought us...it does...still though I wouldn't change it I love driving the car..
 
#42 ·
Just to chip in on the gearbox info. My first 159 2.4 200hp was remapped and it had 50K on the clock and I took it up to 130k. My current 159 Ti 210hp is re mapped, had it at 90k, and now 137k. Both are F40 boxes. No trouble. My son has a remapped Brera 2.2 which had 40k on the clock when purchased and now has 135K in the clock. His engine has been a constant pain, but the M32 box has had no problems. All cars are driven hard and all our Alfa cars are serviced every 12 months irrelevant of mileage, including gearbox oil change. Perhaps that's the answer?
 
#43 ·
M32 on a 2.2 is fine as it doesn't generate enough torque to push the gearbox....on a turbo (diesel or petrol) you do get that much more torque which starts to cause problems I think.
 
#44 ·
I thought the remapped 2.2 had a lot of torque. Its been through two drive shafts since he has owned it.
But yes, a diesel does have a lot of torque and also has lower rev's.

We have 'Courtney Sport' not far from us. They are a Vauxhall tuning specialist and run over 300hp through the M32 in modified Astra VXR cars but with bearing modification which are shown on their website.
Going back to performance, my son and I have discussed that when the 2.2 Brera engine is finally dead, we are going to do a Courtney 300hp+ VXR engine swap, as it bolts on the same gearbox. It will be a big project with wiring loom changes and ECU piggyback, but we know people who can do this. It will be a car with the looks and some performance.
 
#49 ·
Nice results[emoji481]

Out of curiosity, and before posting the clip on yt, do you have the measurement for 80-120km/h in 4th?
Yes I have.

I will post it on YouTube too.

The result was:
4,1seconds

Enviado do meu SM-G965F através do Tapatalk
 
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