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(Post Link) post #1 of 12 Old 4 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
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Clutch questions.

The 147 1.9TJD I have has been remapped and boosted to God knows what. So I am off down the road today driving in 5th gear about 120 KLM/h and I go to overtake the car in front, foot flat to the floor in 5th get about level as it's pulling like a train, and all of a sudden, she revs into red line as the clutch lets go, I take my foot back off the gas a little, until it bites again, and gets past the car OK, but then that famous nasty burning clutch smell enters my nose, ( I knew it). Still drives ok ish, if I don't put too much pressure on the car, but to all intensive purposes, the clutch is a dead duck.

Question here is, what kind of power are these clutches capable of handling, before going sideways on you. the Prev owner says it has a multi plate clutch system in it, although they never said if this is normal or uprated regards the 147's. I have been driving this little bird for a short while now, and I do admit it seems scary fast, at 10 KLm/h rolling start, in 2nd she will go straight to about 110 in about 5 seconds ish, it's bloody mad, what they have done I don't know. I am just wandering if whatever clutch that's in it, is not coping! I am no newbe to fast cars, I used to own and drag race a 600HP mazda, all be it about 13 years ago now, but this little 147 is as crazy a drunk of Crack, if you floor it, if the clutch doesn't drop the ball that is.

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I've never heard of a multi plate clutch on a JTD, but that might just mean I've led a sheltered and impoverished life. I think CG Motorsport make an uprated clutch with different compounds on each side of the friction plate, but there's still only one actual plate.

The stock clutch is fine for standard tune but you'll find a lot of people hereabouts with remaps, and the monster torque at low revs quickly murdering the clutch within a short time.
Solutions are expensive, aside from driving gently. I think the uprated clutch fitted to the 170bhp models is reckoned to be OK to around 200, but if you're a hooligan you probably need an SMF + GTA clutch conversion from Autolusso. The CGM uprated clutches seem to get mixed reviews.
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I've never heard of a multi plate clutch on a JTD, but that might just mean I've led a sheltered and impoverished life. I think CG Motorsport make an uprated clutch with different compounds on each side of the friction plate, but there's still only one actual plate.

The stock clutch is fine for standard tune but you'll find a lot of people hereabouts with remaps, and the monster torque at low revs quickly murdering the clutch within a short time.
Solutions are expensive, aside from driving gently. I think the uprated clutch fitted to the 170bhp models is reckoned to be OK to around 200, but if you're a hooligan you probably need an SMF + GTA clutch conversion from Autolusso. The CGM uprated clutches seem to get mixed reviews.
Thanks for input;
makes sense, not that I knew, but my mind was wandering in a not too dissimilar path to your comment, but not being sure or standing on rock, I thought I would throw it out there to see what others reckoned on it. Maybe I will ask the guy to stick a 170HP version in this time, should not be ridiculously different in price form a normal one. I don't normally rag it about, but it does seem if I progressively increase the weight of my lead boots on the peddle it seems OK, but to throw a concrete block to the floor, she is not a happy camper. But I am still getting to grips with this little firecracker, getting to know and feel my around it. But It can be a scary little ***** thats for sure. One day I will have get it on a rolling road and find out what is hiding in the shadows. I also found out, those NON uprated breaks are barely upto the task if I send the car into Melt down speed so that's gonna need to be factored into the pie mix to. Been down this road before, it's a never ending spiral of a black hole of money. NOT doing that again, can't afford it anymore anyway. He (old owner) has taken the engine way past the rest of the car, seen that before to. I am just going to back off to a level it can cope with. It's plenty anyway for normal road use. But as said, It's all part of getting to know what I have got, a learning curve on this one! As I learn more about this car, watching, and reading, I am starting to think, in a straight line blowout, I would not be shocked if it were on the back bumper of a GTA up about 130MPH. Regarding the clutch off the 170HP 1.9TJD I am presuming this should fit other models of the 147 1.9TJD models OK, presumably generic on manuals just difference on plate pressures and material. ?

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Do you know what's been done to your engine? Even a simple Stage 1 remap to 180-ish bhp makes a pretty lively car.

A remap on its own isn't going to produce much more than 190bhp, though how it's mapped will affect the torque curve and stress on the clutch. The 170 Ducati Corsa/GT Cloverleaf clutch will cope, provided you don't stamp on the accelerator at 2k rpm all the time. I'm not sure whether that's a straight swap on its own, it may need the DC/Cloverleaf DMF as well. I'm still using a stock 150 clutch, replaced 25k mls ago, and a restrained right foot. It doesn't yet slip.

To get more power needs other mods, intercooler, hybrid turbo, different injectors etc. 220-250bhp is pretty easy. That will need the GTA SMF & clutch conversion.

Personally I think the 147 brakes are pretty good with decent pads, and in good condition, but if you drive track days (or like a track day) maybe not. Other larger brakes can be fitted (GTA etc). Search the forum. If it's a choice between bigger brakes and a Q2/Quaife LSD, I'd choose the latter as more likely to keep you on the road.
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Originally Posted by halftone View Post
Do you know what's been done to your engine? Even a simple Stage 1 remap to 180-ish bhp makes a pretty lively car.

A remap on its own isn't going to produce much more than 190bhp, though how it's mapped will affect the torque curve and stress on the clutch. The 170 Ducati Corsa/GT Cloverleaf clutch will cope, provided you don't stamp on the accelerator at 2k rpm all the time. I'm not sure whether that's a straight swap on its own, it may need the DC/Cloverleaf DMF as well. I'm still using a stock 150 clutch, replaced 25k mls ago, and a restrained right foot. It doesn't yet slip.

To get more power needs other mods, intercooler, hybrid turbo, different injectors etc. 220-250bhp is pretty easy. That will need the GTA SMF & clutch conversion.

Personally I think the 147 brakes are pretty good with decent pads, and in good condition, but if you drive track days (or like a track day) maybe not. Other larger brakes can be fitted (GTA etc). Search the forum. If it's a choice between bigger brakes and a Q2/Quaife LSD, I'd choose the latter as more likely to keep you on the road.
True, true, and true, what you say makes sense to me; Regarding MOD's All I know so far is he a paid a good amount of money to a friend of his who remaps race cars, Not that, that tells us a lot, but there we go, and a remap booster has been laid over the top of that to give yet another shove, but it works, All I see when looking in the rear mirror is clouds of steam train black smoke when the foot goes down, and most cars just descend into the distance. Regards Turbo's, again, thats was changed about 1.5 or 2 years ago, with "he says" it has a 5 years guarantee, again, does that tell me anything, umm NOP. but what it is, and if ,and how it differs from a standard one, who knows, not me. Breaks, all I recall was barreling up the rear of some American sports car who was not going too fast, and stamping to the stop peddle and thinking, WOW, this was a close call. won't be doing that again on these breaks, and it has near new disks and pads too!

I am not looking to open pandora's box on the MOD merry go round as said. I suppose I am still getting used to it to be honest, the direct response of the steering at the minute makes it very twitchy in a directional sense, move the steering a faction and you instantly feel the results of it, Not used to that level of sensitivity, well not for a long, long time anyway. it's kind of gokarty in a wired way, so still getting to grips with that. I think, for now, I am going to get him to put a beefed up clutch system as best as I can afford and that will fit without remodelling the car from normal and hope it does the job, coupled with a slightly less heavy right foot.
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Remap and tuning box! Both will be adding fuel. Nothing is adding air. You'll get power to the extent the engine can burn the fuel, but that makes black smoke inevitable.

If everything is aligned correctly and the tyres are good, the go-kartiness is likely torque steer. A Q2 diff will help with that. It's probably only a matter of time before the standard diff explodes, anyhow, thanks to the power.

Personally I'd remove the tuning box ASAP and see where that gets you. It might be slower but the black smoke should reduce and it'll be less inclined to kill the clutch, the diff or you.
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Being a sceptical sort of fella I'd be guessing that it's probably just got a tuning box turned up to 11 that cost £50 on eBay. No harm in that, they sure up the fueling. Any other mods vaguely hinted at I'd suggest might be fanciful.
I agree the brakes are poor. New fluid and braided hoses on my 156 helped a bit. Discs and pads were pagid but there are some awful eicher or some such cheap rubbish out there on the web which are just plane dangerous.
Anyway glad you're enjoying your Alfa. As stated previously, tempting as it is to ride that torque from low revs and feel the front wheels twitch, this hooliganism is best avoided as clutches can't take it.

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Being a sceptical sort of fella I'd be guessing that it's probably just got a tuning box turned up to 11 that cost £50 on eBay. No harm in that, they sure up the fueling. Any other mods vaguely hinted at I'd suggest might be fanciful.
I agree the brakes are poor. New fluid and braided hoses on my 156 helped a bit. Discs and pads were pagid but there are some awful eicher or some such cheap rubbish out there on the web which are just plane dangerous.
Anyway glad you're enjoying your Alfa. As stated previously, tempting as it is to ride that torque from low revs and feel the front wheels twitch, this hooliganism is best avoided as clutches can't take it.

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No the remap did take place as the after market box booster was added later, I drove the car prior to this little box being added, and about 90% power boost give or take, was already online as it were. But that's fine, your view is respected.
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I fitted Ferodo disks and FDB1052 & FDB1039 pads, braided hoses, new fluid, new rear cylinders, and happy with 147 brakes. But I already got an unexpected upgrade when I fitted a new vacuum pump a year earlier, after damaging the old one during incompetent spannering. It made a much bigger difference than all the new brake parts. Apparently the original had lost quite a bit of suck in 80k mls.
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I fitted Ferodo disks and FDB1052 & FDB1039 pads, braided hoses, new fluid, new rear cylinders, and happy with 147 brakes. But I already got an unexpected upgrade when I fitted a new vacuum pump a year earlier, after damaging the old one during incompetent spannering. It made a much bigger difference than all the new brake parts. Apparently the original had lost quite a bit of suck in 80k mls.
That's an interesting aspect to be considered, I know the pads and discs are near new, easy to see, as well being told, I will look into your suggestions. I expect the standard breaks, probably do work OK, but to be fair, I was doing some fast speed maybe 80 + MPH and for none uprated breaks to drop from about 80+MPH to about 35 or 40 in a 3 or 4 seconds or so is a lot to ask. They would be under huge pressure considering the Inertia, and weight they asked to slow. Maybe, just maybe I was being little unfair on the poor things. Problem is Alfa's are not like ford escorts, there are not millions about for me to jump into some friends version and see how their one performs, I have no experiential bench mark on 147's to make a personal assessment of things. It's hard for me in lots of ways. But if ever I get to meet others with 147's I will try and get little rides in them to gauge where someone is and my one, on the ladder of crap, poor, average, good, and fantastic O scale!
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As far as the Clutch thing goes, dropped into see how things are progressing, and old clutch, is near out. Again spoke to the old owner ( his garage) he emphatically assurse me the clutch has never been changed from new. and speedometer is showing 290,000 Klm's about 180 ish thousand miles. Well if true, that is an exceptional lifespan for a clutch, no wonder the old boy was giving up the ghost.
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My experience of pads across loads of vehicles and many years, is that there can be a lot of difference between brands and compounds. The worst were practically useless, with braking distances massively worse. Worst ever have been Vesrah (possibly counterfeit) and early EBC Kevlar (nearly double braking distance on a bike, stank of burned fish). Both were appalling. I've also twice had EBC brake shoes fall apart, with the bonded lining detaching, once on a m/c, once on a car.

I've never had any issues with Brembo, Mintex, Tarox, Ferodo, Dunlopad, others I forget, various OE VAG, Renault, Honda, Ford, Suzuki, Citroen, Peugeot. Differences have been fairly minor, how good when cold, dust production and noise etc.

The all-Ferodo brakes on the 147 now seem a really good balance for road use with occasional enthusiasm. Good even when cold, no noise, no fade I have experienced, progressive and good feedback. Nothing to dislike. But...

With stock 284mm disks on the front Autolusso's Performance Friction pads have a strong reputation hereabouts, as do Ferodo even-more-expensive DS2500. Either might suit you better. Beyond that, 335mm or even 305mm disk + caliper conversions... just add money.
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