Alfa Romeo 156 v6 2.5 when should the fans work - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #26 of 34 Old 28-04-19 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwq View Post
The 156 does not have a CAN bus (also not the V6)
As far as I know, the 156 ALWAYS has a seperate temp sensor for the gauge, independant of what is measured by the ECU.
However, the 2 temp senders are mounted in the same physical plug, with one electrical connector, on the thermostat housing making it look like 1 sensor.
The one going to ECU is a 2-wire connection, the one to the gauge is a singe wire (and ground).

see (K36 is combined temp sensor) :
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Originally Posted by jwq View Post
No, 156 CF3 cars do NOT have CAN bus, and the temp gauge is analog, not stepper controlled.... As said, your car uses 2 seperate sensors built into the same case, one for the gauge, one for the engine ECU, which is also confirmed by your own statement that the sensor has a connection with 4 pins .
This means that in theory what the gauge displays and what MES indicates (the ecu measurement) can differ, as they use seperate sensors. Usually the temp as measured by the ecu is more accurate, this is also used to controll the fan switch-on/off.

156's are known to often have less accurate temp.gauges, though they do react immediately to all temp changes, contrary to the more modern cars with gauges controlled via can bus/ecu (for example 147, giulietta, mito etc.), which reflect what the ecu measures, but are damped as mentioned before.

so you mean my car has 2 sensors combined in 1 sensor ? this is the link of the sensor i have, https://cdn.autoteilexxl.de/thumb?m=...n&ccf=21876011


and as far as i understand this sensor is doing 2 jobs 1 sending to the gauge and 2 to the ECU which should be the same readings as they are 1 sensor but with 2 jobs, the cf2 2.5 engine has 2 separate sensors as far as i know,


and yet i do not know what to do if this is normal, why the gauge doesn't indicate it is normal ? the gauge is showing the same as MES both are showing 97 if this is normal why the needle doesn't stay at the middle ? and does all the alfa 156 2.5 v6 CF3 face the same gauge issue ????? bmw e36 doesn't have canbus and the gauge needle stay in the middle and doesn't react with the sensor as long as it is within the safe range,

this is how my gauge always looks like,


.............. i am not feeling comfortable at all to see my gauge needle close to the high and i shouldn't panic, this is not normal i need to know what is that and how to fix it if some one knows,
i have seen many 156 2.5 v6 cf2 and their gauge behave normal,

Last edited by zewolf; 28-04-19 at 19:32.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zewolf View Post
so you mean my car has 2 sensors combined in 1 sensor ? this is the link of the sensor i have,

and as far as i understand this sensor is doing 2 jobs 1 sending to the gauge and 2 to the ECU which should be the same readings as they are 1 sensor but with 2 jobs, the cf2 2.5 engine has 2 separate sensors as far as i know,
....,
The sensor in your picture actually contains 2 separate NTC resistors within the same housing. One for the gauge, one for the ECU.
So not 1 sensor for 2 jobs as you say, but 1 housing with 2 seperate sensors ...
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(Post Link) post #28 of 34 Old 29-04-19 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jwq View Post
No, 156 CF3 cars do NOT have CAN bus, and the temp gauge is analog, not stepper controlled.... As said, your car uses 2 seperate sensors built into the same case, one for the gauge, one for the engine ECU, which is also confirmed by your own statement that the sensor has a connection with 4 pins .
This means that in theory what the gauge displays and what MES indicates (the ecu measurement) can differ, as they use seperate sensors. Usually the temp as measured by the ecu is more accurate, this is also used to controll the fan switch-on/off.

156's are known to often have less accurate temp.gauges, though they do react immediately to all temp changes, contrary to the more modern cars with gauges controlled via can bus/ecu (for example 147, giulietta, mito etc.), which reflect what the ecu measures, but are damped as mentioned before.

Yaah, i understand but i changed the sensor 2 times to make sure it is not faulty and still the same results, all i want to do is to not see the gauge behaving like this what i am missing ?
where to look at
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What I don't understand, but maybe it's just me
If MES and the gauge both display more or less the same temperature, why would you think there's a problem with the gauge ?
It would seem to be correct, the temperature of the cooling system is apparently simply 97 degrees.....

The most you can say is that your engine might be running slightly hot ....

However, on the 147, gt etc versions with can bus controlled gauges, you just don't see the temp.fluctuations, as the gauge simply displays 90 degrees (centre of scale) for all actual temperatures between 80 and 100 degrees, so the driver is simply being fooled
As said, different from the 156 gauge which displays true temperature, so you will see more fluctuations during normal use as this reflects the actual engine temperatures, which will of course fluctuate somewhat according to conditions.

Actually I think normal operating temps for an engine are 90 to 104 degrees, so 97 degrees would be right in the middle of that range, so your engine temps would seem to be perfectly normal ....

Last edited by jwq; 29-04-19 at 12:40.
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Yeah....like i said its a bit disconcerting to the driver and, if the engine is meant to work between 85-95 without any issues then the system on the later cars seems a much more user friendly one.

Noone enjoys watching the gauge rise to nearly 100. For all we know....any one of these times is when it'll over heat.
If its consistent though, u should eventually get to trust it and then you'll notice when it rises higher than 'normal' and then you can say there's an issue.

In saying all that, i don't enjoy the anxiety the dial gives me either :0( and would much rather have a system that only read high if there was an issue

Maybe you can upgrade to the can/bus!??
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
.....
Maybe you can upgrade to the can/bus!??
That would really be a major project , you'd be better off getting another car.

It would be simpler to write some software to control the temp gauge, to make it behave like the later CAN versions

maybe something like this
Touch-Screen-Multi-Gauge
DM-100Touch_user_guide.pdf
although you could probably also modify the existing guage, putting a controller in between the NTC and gauge to map input/output....
All seems a bit of a hassle though for what is in principle a perfectly good gauge

however, with electronics/software anything is possible

Last edited by jwq; 29-04-19 at 14:25.
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T

although you could probably also modify the existing guage, putting a controller in between the NTC and gauge to map input/output....

Good Idea, do you have any information how to do that ?
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Good Idea, do you have any information how to do that ?
Haven't seriously thought about it, but ofhand cheapest way would probably be to simply use a microprocessor with an ad (analogue to digital) and da (digital to analogue) converter to digitize the signal from the NTC sensor, use lookup table to translate to output value, and use da converter to drive gauge ....
You could also easily calibrate input and output that way, and needn't cost much.

slightly more expensive might be to just use f.i. rasberry pi
https://www.raspberrypi.org/
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ etc

or an arduino
https://www.arduino.cc/en/main/products

or even simpler one of the c-control systems, example
https://www.conrad.com/p/c-control-c...-32-pro-198206
https://www.conrad.com/search?search...chType=regular

Last edited by jwq; 29-04-19 at 18:20.
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(Post Link) post #34 of 34 Old 30-04-19 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jwq View Post
Haven't seriously thought about it, but ofhand cheapest way would probably be to simply use a microprocessor with an ad (analogue to digital) and da (digital to analogue) converter to digitize the signal from the NTC sensor, use lookup table to translate to output value, and use da converter to drive gauge ....
You could also easily calibrate input and output that way, and needn't cost much.

slightly more expensive might be to just use f.i. rasberry pi
https://www.raspberrypi.org/
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ etc

or an arduino
https://www.arduino.cc/en/main/products

or even simpler one of the c-control systems, example
https://www.conrad.com/p/c-control-c...-32-pro-198206
https://www.conrad.com/search?search...chType=regular


Thanks mate, i will try to check this our or find a a tuner to do a remap for the ECU
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