2.5 V6 - Cam locking tool info required - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 14 Old 16-04-17 Thread Starter
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2.5 V6 - Cam locking tool info required

Good evening all.

I've just completed my second timing belt job (well actually, broken timing belt repair - heads off, valves replaced etc) on two separate Alfa 156s (one was a 2004 facelift, the other was a 2002 non facelift).

After repair, both vehicles have had the same stumble/miss at idle and low engine RPMs but run fine under load. I suspect there's an issue with the ebay camshaft locks I purchased and my cam timing is slightly off.

These are the tools that I currently have:






I placed them on the engine with "C2" on cylinder 1 exhaust, "C1" on cylinder 1 intake, "C3" on cylinder 6 intake and "C4" on cylinder 4 exhaust.

Could someone please put up some similar pictures of the correct 2.5 cam locks for me to compare to? I have noted the cutouts are identical between C3 and C4 (but mirrored), whereas C1 and C2 are different depths and in different positions (C2 doesn't bolt down on the camshaft correctly).

Thanks!
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hello,
I have had simmilar problem as you due to those f*cking chinese camlocks. I had to do whole job 3 times to get it right.

The way I did it is that i didnt tighten the camlocks completelly, because they dont fit properly anyway... I have set all four camshaft according to marks on the right end of the cam .

Method that came up with was to place a 0,5mm feeler gauge flush on the cillinder head and then wiggle the camshaft until the gauge fit perfectly into the mark groove. Then i tightened camlock to hold it in place.
It is not an ideal method but apparently it is still more accurate than those ****ty locks. Engine rins smooth since then.

Also I would recommend to use loger bolts than original to fasten the locks because it is possible to strip threads easily with them as they only reach few threads. I was so ****ed when this happened to me had to put thread insert in there.. it was a nightmare.

Mine english is.. well not that good, so if you dont understand, let me know and i will try to describe it better

EDIT: all camlocks are supposed to be facing recessed side to the timingbelt "SX" mens sinistra=left "DX" means destra=right, X-CIL is the cylinder number, A is aspirazione=intake , S is scarico= exhaust

I possibly might find photos if U need that

Last edited by samuelis; 16-04-17 at 13:29.
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I got the same problem at my last cambelt change on my 156 2.5 . Before the change the ECU always showed Misfires on the back bank. My Intake camshaft had play with the Camshaft locking tools fitted. All other camshafts had zero play with them fitted.
After this I bought a another set of the camlocks und had the same problem with them. I compared them with the original ones from my alfa dealer and all was fine on the cam locks. I went to a junkyard with my camshafts and tried the blocks on a another engine and why worked all fine with no problem. I picked the camshaft up and put it in my car all fine and runs great since this never showed misfires again.

At the moment I do a timing belt on my 166 3.0. The engine got the same problem with the Intake camshaft on the back. Both engines have other 200.000 kilometres done.
But why it is always the rear intake camshaft is that gone I would be interested in.
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I dont think that you are right. When i have tried fitting other 3 camlocks on the exact camlobe (they were either rotated 180 degrees or cam was positioned differently) on which one lock didnt fit, remaining three fit perfectly.
I really think that one of them was manufactured incorrectly.

By the way, my engine has 400 000+ km and except quite a bit of oil sludge everything looks fine.

Here is how my engine was idling when I have set the cams according to these rubbish camlocks, not marks.
Crappy quality, but u will get the point...

Last edited by samuelis; 16-04-17 at 15:09.
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Exactly like this sounded my 156 before timing belt and camshaft swap. To be honest I drove the car with the misfires nearly 10.000 km and tried everything else.
3 Camshaft locking tools from 3 different manufacturers and all of them got the same problem at my cars only at the intake camshaft on the back.
At the point where I fitted the another camshaft all sets worked perfect.

What also work is timing with the notches in the camshafts at the end.

I can make a video with the play in my camshaft if you want the engine is open at the moment an the timing belt off.
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(Post Link) post #6 of 14 Old 17-04-17 Thread Starter
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Well, I'm glad to see I'm not alone. The last one I did had 230,000 kms, this one has just clicked over 170,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samuelis View Post
Mine english is.. well not that good, so if you dont understand, let me know and i will try to describe it better

EDIT: all camlocks are supposed to be facing recessed side to the timingbelt "SX" mens sinistra=left "DX" means destra=right, X-CIL is the cylinder number, A is aspirazione=intake , S is scarico= exhaust

I possibly might find photos if U need that
Your English is fine, thanks for the info.


Quote:
Originally Posted by samuelis View Post
Here is how my engine was idling when I have set the cams according to these rubbish camlocks, not marks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_DBoXEYqwg
Crappy quality, but u will get the point...
Haha, yup that's the sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BussoV6Fan View Post
I can make a video with the play in my camshaft if you want the engine is open at the moment an the timing belt off.
Yes please. Could you also include shots of the marks in the end of the camshafts? I don't recall seeing them on either of my two engines, in saying that I wasn't exactly looking for them.

Great stuff so far guys, thanks.

Last edited by brownbox; 17-04-17 at 08:51.
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Marks are on the rear end of the cam shaft. They line up with the top of the head. There are several though. I've probably got a pic somewhere of them but cam locks are the best way of timing them up.
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No, can't find a pic of the markings. I have been meaning to scan in the cam locks I do have though. Will try to progress that idea.
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(Post Link) post #9 of 14 Old 18-04-17 Thread Starter
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Good evening all.
Just popped down to the local Alfa specialist today so I could compare my tools to his, found my tool labelled "C1" (cylinder 1 intake) is incorrect, in that the depth of the lobe and the angle is slightly off (I'd guess around 2-3 degrees). The rest were identical. C1 is also the one that wouldn't fit correctly when attempting to bolt it down to the head.

I believe the correct profile can be attained using a die grinder and the appropriate carbide burr/stone. Or having a machine shop replicate the profile as machined into C2 (which is meant to be a mirror image of C1). I guess another way around it would be to time cylinder 1 exhaust first using C2, then flip the tool around (so the cut out faces the transmission) and time cylinder 1 intake, that way C1 is not required at all.

In case anyone now (or in the future) is wondering, these tools are branded "Quattro". I recommend just staying away from them, they weren't that much cheaper than others on the market anyway.

I'll likely have this pulled apart again in the weekend for re-timing, I'll keep everyone posted with plenty of photos.

Last edited by brownbox; 18-04-17 at 09:30.
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C1 and C2 is different, you can see it at my picture c1 is the top one!

And I made 2 pictures from the notches from the cam marks. The longest mark on the cam have to sit flush with the head. On the pictures the timinig of the cams are set wrong, I had confused C1 and C2. But you get the point with the marks I think. C1 and C2 have to sit like in the pic. In 2-3 days I post pics with the notches with right timing.





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I'm sure if you searvh in the engine section under v6 timing you willfind loads of info on timing. All the v6 24v engines (except the 3.2) use the same cam locks .
There are pics on there too of the markings on the ends of the camshafts. https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...ml#post8529009
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(Post Link) post #12 of 14 Old 14-05-17 Thread Starter
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Good morning all.
Apologies for the delay, it took longer than expected to build up the motivation to pull this apart again. Not sure what I was so worried about, it only took a couple of hours to re-set the timing and it's now a completely different car! It purrs at idle instead of chuffing away, I also find the bottom end power has improved dramatically - it just doesn't feel as flat as it was before. Top end is still the same - get above 4,500 rpm and it really comes to life.

Now then, here's what I found:


These should be the same. If they aren't then one of the tools is wrong.

I simply reset the timing using the good tool on one cam, then flipping it around to check the other. The tool that's cut out wrong...well the best place for that is the scrap steel bin!

Here's the "timing mark" before, as set with the incorrect lock:


Here it is after being adjusted, as set with the correct tool:


This is how the correct tool fitted on the incorrectly set cam when at cylinder 1 TDC before the cam was re-timed:


There is a very, very slight amount of slop in the camshaft when the locking tool is fitted, this is a negligible amount in my case - less than half the width of the timing mark line.

So there we have it - BEWARE if you're planning on using or purchasing the red ebay cam locking tools.

Thanks for the help everyone

Last edited by brownbox; 14-05-17 at 00:54.
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(Post Link) post #13 of 14 Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Hi! Don't buy CamLock tools from Ebay or China Aliexpress, they are defective!!!

1825040000 / 1870896600

Defective part is C1 A-DX-1-CIL is marked with white...

Andris
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Interesting. Same tools as my ones by the looks, still coming through with the same issue.

Come on China, it's not that hard.
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