Will the internet destroy national language?

[Scudetto]

Hi guys,

I was wondering. The internet crosses all geographical boundries and borders. Just look at AO. We have shed loads of overseas posters chatting with us in English. Some are excellent at it, while others might make the odd mistake, we know what they're trying to say.

Now language as well as custom has been one of things that has always defined a country. But mass production has commoditized goods; now you can buy a VW as easily in Brazil as you can Germany. Globalisation has seen brands branch out to all markets, sadly bringing a ubiquity to many places. It has slowly brought a common thread to different markets.

I'm of the generation that remembers when we used to drive to Italy, France felt French, and as un-Italian as Italy was un-English. Back then, to get Italian food items in the UK, we would have to go an Italian shop (ICS; the Berkshire peeps will know it well). We got Polish food from the Polish man that used to drive his van around to the homes of the Poles', from which they'd select Polish bread and meats etc. Now, most supermarkets supply a good range of continental foods.

I'm not suggesting that we go back to these days (although it was nice). But I wonder what the global market and the global net will unify next...and I wonder if that might be language? Not overnight, not tomorrow...but sometime. For instance, I listen to an Italian internet station and they don't limited their English to things like 'ok'; a lot of English creeps into their broadcast.

I don't think anything like Esperanto will 'take over'. I don't think we're living in a time that needs a new-age language...but I fear (maybe unfounded) that established languages, might, one day be eroded.

Or, maybe, I should see a positive; maybe they won't be eroded. Maybe they'll simply add more words - albeit English words - to their language. Which, in theory, will make it even easier and more pleasureable to chat with our global friends.

But I do wonder...100 years from now, how will languages evolve and perhaps unify.

This is not the most scintillating topic, granted lol...but the net, the global market, international relations in the developed world have had a profound effect on what we buy, where we buy it from and who we communicate with.

My folks' first language wasn't English, so I grew up with three names for everything. It was most confusing when my folks would inter-swap words between their languages; half the time I can't remember whether a word is Italian or Polish, and then what it means in English. To me, this was all 'language', and it was all inclusive.

So maybe we'll get to a stage - thanks to the 'net etc - where there isn't different languages; just an evolved concept of accepting a new word in the vocab as part of our international language, irrespective of where it came from.

(btw - I'm massively aware of the cultural weight a language carries. Brian Friel's 'Translations' explains why you can't just ditch a language, and I'm not suggesting that for a moment. But as commonality, ubiqiuty and uniformity continue to spread, at what point will it impact the lingo?

Just a light post then

g

[Rayq81]

I fink u mite b on2 sumink then

[Scudetto]

Originally Posted by rayq81

I fink u mite b on2 sumink then

i remember a saying: "when you're selling to me, speak in my language. When you're buying from me, i'll speak in your language".

global market place now more than ever...

g

[PaulR]

Not sure about the influence of the net but - as I understand it international air travel took care of language many years ago.

I know that there is at least one airline pilot on here so I am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong - BUT - isn't the international language on all commercial air traffic English?

Paul.

[Scudetto]

i wasn't aware of that, Paul. but i can understand why in the case of flying and all the risks it poses, it's imperative that there's no confusion over meaning.

But scoot back a few years...English or American bands have dominated the global music scene, injecting through pop the English language. Today, the internet is allowing our overseas friends to share what English they learnt at school, through work or even popular culture, to engage with other English speakers (for instance...a Norwegian can use his gleaned English to communicate with a Spaniard who has also picked up key bits of the English language).

I'm sure that's always been the case, but i bet the net is magnifying that opportunity...and my question is what impact that will have long term.

g

[PaulR]

I see your point G.

On the music front though I have listened to far more "World" music since the internet came into existence - African, Saami, and various African. I think music is the most "National" of all mediums.

As a pedantic point ( I know you picked Norwegians as an example) Norwegians learn English from primary school (rather than glean) - their grammar is certainly better than mine and put me to shame when I was there.

Like you (I think) I do wonder whether the net is the new McDonalds and English will sneak in by the backdoor - "Would you like large or regular metaphores with that?".

[Al Faromeo]

If I remember correctly, politics and economics dictate a "leading language" (so to speak). Not so long ago, it was French and Spanish. Latin before that (in my limited western hemisphere view).
In China, Mandarin became dominant but more than 30 different languages are spoken there as well.

Language follows political and economical dominance - by and large. And it evolves (when not dead, like Latin). Many people speak more than one language - their national language (defined by politics), and their "home" or "mother" tongue - the language they were raised in. Most also have a professional register used to communicate profesionally. There has always been some interaction between languages, especially near the borders of political/economical influence spheres.

Tinterweb helps to establish a certain linguistic common ground (as does scientific jargon in a way). On the one hand, it tends to enrich (as in elaborate) the other languages with concepts and words from the English, but please realise that the English spoken by foreigners like me on the internet is very limited in its vocabulary, in its grammatical constructs and limited in its expressions to the subject matter being discussed.

English as a pidgin common ground. But apart from that, the national/home/personal language continues to be used for anything outside the confines of tinternet/the subject matter discussed thereupon.

Just my 0,02.

[Alfaspeed]

It will all become Bladerunner-esque (without the Replicants - maybe).

In the far future there wont be any distinctive 'countries' as we know them now. Not necessarily a bad thing as i think a singular perspective on this little rock would do some good, but individuality will cease to exist as we know it. Travelling from one place to another will be as normal as taking a trip down to the shops. Everywhere will sell the same things and look the same and people will speak the same.

Sounds like science fiction but its a popular prediction of the way things will go. Who that dominant commercial force would be i have no idea, but the most popular ones are company's originating from Japan (hence Bladerunner etc) and China. As economies grow (China is expected to surpass the US in a decade or less) the dominant places change. At the moment most places are Americanised. Great Britain, most of Europe and even more so in the Far East, are seeing American food places opening up at alarming rates. I cant see McDonalds taking over the planet (and i dont want to either) but all it would take is something like that to secure a current country's future as the global commercial force. Many buy-outs and take overs later they own 90% of the worlds businesses and our future is sealed.

Do you want fries with that?

[Scudetto]

cheers guys, you've provided some interesting food for thought. So maybe pidgin English (and i do not mean that disrespectfully) will become a second 'casual' language for those for whom it isn't their mother tongue, rather than a replacement for their primary language.

AlfaSpeed, in this para...:

"Sounds like science fiction but its a popular prediction of the way things will go. Who that dominant commercial force would be i have no idea, but the most popular ones are company's originating from Japan (hence Bladerunner etc) and China. As economies grow (China is expected to surpass the US in a decade or less) the dominant places change. At the moment most places are Americanised. Great Britain, most of Europe and even more so in the Far East, are seeing American food places opening up at alarming rates. I cant see McDonalds taking over the planet (and i dont want to either) but all it would take is something like that to secure a current country's future as the global commercial force. Many buy-outs and take overs later they own 90% of the worlds businesses and our future is sealed."

...you articulated my long term concern; that the business of global business could potentially bring an undesired uniformity to language.

I do think this is an interesting topic. Remember, 20 years ago, we baulked at the idea of the Berlin Wall falling; of a McDonalds opening in Russia; of the curry becoming the UK's national dish; of a Mercedes being built in South Africa...the world is shifting and evolving...tradition counts for nothing in the borderless and boundry-less global economy, and maybe language will be rewarded or suffocated for it.

g

[BigFoot]

I don't see language becoming more uniform at all. English will become more widespread but Chinese is already the most used language on the internet, so I'd say we'll probably see an evolution of languages rather than a growing similarity but with perhaps a simplied English being the lingua franca of commerce/international communication.

English is easy enough to learn and speak to a decent extent.

As a non native speaker, I find it very interesting to see that often, two non-native English speakers with medium level knowledge of the language can speak to each other much more fluently than with either of them interacts with a native English speaker. Most often than not, because the latter does not realise his counterpart doesn't know most of the English figures of speech and ways of saying.

I have already started seeing a lot of Americanisms coming into British English. It'll just become more and more so.

[Al Faromeo]

Originally Posted by BigFoot

... two non-native English speakers with medium level knowledge of the language can speak to each other much more fluently than with either of them interacts with a native English speaker ...

Interesting observation, that!
I must assume that this would be due also to the fact that these two "talk" about a common subject matter, with a specific and limited set of words and grammatical constructs.

I'll keep an eye out for examples

[Ant]

English is also my second language, and I'm amazed to see that native speakers have WAY more grammatical errors than I do. That's odd...

[PaulR]

Originally Posted by Ant

English is also my second language, and I'm amazed to see that native speakers have WAY more grammatical errors than I do. That's odd...

Don't be (amazed) Ant. I would guess that any formal teaching you had included grammar - these days, in British schools, that is secondary to "expression".

You seem to have the same grammar as those of us who were taught here in the 50's and 60's. Not only that but you have picked up the idioms (I can assure you that there is a generation here who think that "idiom" is an insult).

Paul.

[156Chris]

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[Quinn]

This is a great thread Scudetto

It brings up the point of should we embrace a global
language to help all our different races and cultures
(including whatever any individual feels his/her own is)
get off their own high horse and then get on with each other

and that the internet and commerce needs to embrace
that, and already seems to have in a lot of ways ...

I think we should be amazed at how many other cultures
can speak English better then some English folks I met today
during a meeting about recruiting some managers

I can only say that, as an apparent educated nation we
don't seem so keen to learn theirs

which brings into mind your idea of something like re-jigging
Esperanto ... but who would teach it?

[Ant]

Originally Posted by PaulR

Don't be (amazed) Ant. I would guess that any formal teaching you had included grammar - these days, in British schools, that is secondary to "expression".

You seem to have the same grammar as those of us who were taught here in the 50's and 60's. Not only that but you have picked up the idioms (I can assure you that there is a generation here who think that "idiom" is an insult).

Paul.

Cheers Paul.

Just one question, how do you spell "amazed" in your side of the pond?? AmaSed??

Or should it be "amused"??

[BigFoot]

Same spelling: amazed. It's not one of those "s" vs "z" words

[Ant]

English is weird.

[Al Faromeo]

Originally Posted by PaulR

...You seem to have the same grammar as those of us who were taught here in the 50's and 60's. ...

This is not a recent event - I remember being better at grammar (and spelling) in French when we were living in France and Switzerland in the early 60ies - I believe the crux is more in the formal teaching than in the decennium the teaching took place in.

I believe that people who have formally learned a language as a second or third language will have better formal skills (grammar, spelling) because they have to be conscious of the rules (once a certain command of the language is reached).