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(Post Link) post #1 of 665 Old 25-05-10 Thread Starter
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2.4 JTD bigger Injectors

Nozzles, injectors... Whatever. the old 136hp 2.4 JTD's injectors ( which are very small and can't be used for more than 200 hp)

Last edited by John_Connor; 28-04-12 at 23:31.
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not sure about the bmw ones but:

200 bhp is about as much you can safely put through the transmission, or rather the 400+ Nm you(re likely to make at 2000-2500 rpm is...

the injectors from the 140/150 bhp are about 20% bigger, should get you around 250 bhp with careful mapping, but you need a Q2 dif to keep the transmission in 1 piece....
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Originally Posted by John_Connor View Post
Nozzles, injectors... Whatever. I've been told that the old 136hp 2.4 JTD's injectors ( which are very small and can't be used for more than 200 hp) could easily be replaced with the 150hp ones or even better: 175 hp Multijet 2.4 JTD
If we can use injectors from such a different common rail engine is it possible to use injectors let's say... From a 330d common rail engine ? ( BMW's common rail )
The 20v multijet are completely different injectors, fitted at a different position and angle in the engine.

150 hp ones may be an option however.
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(Post Link) post #4 of 665 Old 25-05-10 Thread Starter
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the 150hp and 20V injectors have already been tried out and they work fine on a 2.4 JTD 10V 136hp engine. My question is about injectors from a different common rail engine

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the 150hp and 20V injectors have already been tried out and they work fine on a 2.4 JTD 10V 136hp engine. My question is about injectors from a different common rail engine like the 330d.
I don't believe the 20v injectors fit. They are completely different:
Compare the second (8v/10v) and third 16/20v) from above in this link:

fuel injector service, fuel injectors, injectors, injector, fuel injector, automotive injectors diesel, injectors diesel

By the way, if you scroll down you'll also find BMW injectors that will for sure not fit either.
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Does anyone know the size of the injectors on 2.4 jtd 10v 136hp ? Measured in um.
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I don't believe the 20v injectors fit. They are completely different:
If the nozzles are compatible, there is no need to change the whole injector.
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But how do we find out if the injectors or even the nozzles are compatible? Hasn't anyone done this before?
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guess not.
Only one way to find out - buy one (maybe one can get the nozzles seperately via Bosh?) and take a look.

maybe ask these guys:
http://www.turbocompressori.net/injectors_nozzles.htm

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guess not.
Only one way to find out - buy one (maybe one can get the nozzles seperately via Bosh?) and take a look.

maybe ask these guys:
injectors nozzles, injectors, bosch fuel injectors, diesel injectors, bosch injectors, delphi fuel injectors, diesel fuel injectors
Yeah I did ask them but still no answer... Come on , an entire continent and noone has even tried this experiment?
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the CF3 injectors will get me to 260bhp, and far more torque than the gearbox can take... why would I look for something more expensive as I have the CF3 injectors gathering dust?

I'll likely get the injectors reconditioned or cleaned, I could ask there if there are bigger nozzles available, and which cars uses them...

BTW, (OFFTOPIC) I decided to fit a GT2256V from a 175 bhp 2.4, only thing I need to sort is the exhaust and converting to pressure actuator. oh, and check the connection for the oil feed is the same...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
the CF3 injectors will get me to 260bhp, and far more torque than the gearbox can take... why would I look for something more expensive as I have the CF3 injectors gathering dust?

I'll likely get the injectors reconditioned or cleaned, I could ask there if there are bigger nozzles available, and which cars uses them...

BTW, (OFFTOPIC) I decided to fit a GT2256V from a 175 bhp 2.4, only thing I need to sort is the exhaust and converting to pressure actuator. oh, and check the connection for the oil feed is the same...

Is the fuel pump on the 136 and 140/150hp versions the same?

Last edited by John_Connor; 28-04-12 at 23:32.
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cant you chance the fuelling system another way ?

you have 1350bar system , chance that to new version 1600bar ..

that should give you around +20 - 25% more fuel .

the pump chance should be easy, as they both use belt.

and if 140-150hp cars can be mapped to 200hp, and with other mods they can be around 210-220hp. then add there this 1600bar system, and you have fuel for at least .....

252-264hp minimum.

its sounds funny, that you can get power with 1.9 16v diesel, but not with 2.4 10v .

also is funny, that 16v gearbox can handle 480nm, but 10v only 400nm.

and was it that 2.4 20v 175hp jtd, that cant handle almost nothing more, or the gearbox will broken.

is there anything, that can be done to the gearboxes on these cars? I mean the engine sound is so much better, and if you can get 250hp with 16v, then why not 300hp with 2.4 jtd 20v 175 .. ?

damn..

16vt / 190hp / 400nm / 3300rpm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarkko.Männistö View Post
cant you chance the fuelling system another way ?

you have 1350bar system , chance that to new version 1600bar ..

that should give you around +20 - 25% more fuel .

the pump chance should be easy, as they both use belt.

and if 140-150hp cars can be mapped to 200hp, and with other mods they can be around 210-220hp. then add there this 1600bar system, and you have fuel for at least .....

252-264hp minimum.

its sounds funny, that you can get power with 1.9 16v diesel, but not with 2.4 10v .

also is funny, that 16v gearbox can handle 480nm, but 10v only 400nm.

and was it that 2.4 20v 175hp jtd, that cant handle almost nothing more, or the gearbox will broken.

is there anything, that can be done to the gearboxes on these cars? I mean the engine sound is so much better, and if you can get 250hp with 16v, then why not 300hp with 2.4 jtd 20v 175 .. ?

damn..
i think you are a little mislead...

first the HighPressure Pumps are both driven by belt but:
the newer ones are electronic controlled via ECU - they have at least a low and one High Pressure Output - where the old ones are simply high pressure all day... next thing is the diameter of the belt driven gear it's not shure this is exactly the same on all 5 Zylinder engines...

2nd.
Increasing railpressure does not increase the amount of fuel in the same way, it is way less! Reson for this is the drag you have on your fueling system - the higher the pressure - the higher the drag which is limiting maximum throughput.
Take the Walbro fuel pump for example:
it has an output of 255liters / hour on with 0 Bar pressure - output drops dramaticly as pressure raises - i know first hand - got one installed to my windscreen washer jets and thrust me it's no were close to 255l/h with that small diameter of the washer hose... (it's still quite a thing on the washers ^^)

3rd:
those CR Pumps are expensive as hell, for reasons named no way plug&play and the increase in fueling would be quite limited - it is best to remove all bottlenecks in the Fuelings system first.
Changing the Fuel Pump would be needed once the Stock System can't deliver the asked pressure any longer. (Big INjectors + loods of boost + high rpm!)
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we have here in Finland at least one car, that has this upgraded pump...

its has newer model intakes and only what you see outside is old.

dont know about alfa/fiats, but mb can increase fuelling like that.

1350bar --> 1600bar +20%

injectors are expencive too... but anyway, hopefully someone can soon

find a good upgrade for alfa/fiat fuelling.

how much different is the 16v and 10v injectors ? and 20v ..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarkko.Männistö View Post
we have here in Finland at least one car, that has this upgraded pump...

its has newer model intakes and only what you see outside is old.

dont know about alfa/fiats, but mb can increase fuelling like that.

1350bar --> 1600bar +20%

injectors are expencive too... but anyway, hopefully someone can soon

find a good upgrade for alfa/fiat fuelling.

how much different is the 16v and 10v injectors ? and 20v ..
As far as I read somewhere here, you don't need to upgrade CP1 pump until your upgrades are going far beyond replacing OEM clutch and injectors. Even CP1 pump is capable to run @1800bar (fuel cooler probably needed) and deliver enough fuel up to 260HP.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarkko.Männistö View Post
we have here in Finland at least one car, that has this upgraded pump...

its has newer model intakes and only what you see outside is old.

dont know about alfa/fiats, but mb can increase fuelling like that.

1350bar --> 1600bar +20%
are you refering to a Merc with the upgraded System or a FIat 2.4?
that 20% gain in fuelling would only be possible if the stock injectors could handle that high flow with a stock injection window...
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Okay let us all speak in a language we all understand.... So what are the CF3 injectors? Are those the multijet ones?
Even if the injectors you mention could take you to 260bhp ( where did you get that information anyway? ) then how far will the fuel pump take you?

Is the fuel pump on the 136 and 140/150hp versions the same?
CF2 injectors are the ones in the 136 2.4 engine, and in the 1.5 bhp 1.9 8v engines: Bosch nr 0 445 110 002

CF3 engines are 140/150 bhp engines, bosch nr 0 445 110 119. Also the 110 and 115 bhp 8v engines use these.

the HP pumps on these engines are all the same bosch nr 0 445 010 006, except the older ones might have 0 445 010 002 which was replaced by 0 445 010 006.

the CF3 engine injectors have about 20% more capacity than the CF2 injectors, and the 136 with original injectors can be taken over 200 bhp, the limit being the turbo really....
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If you keep the same injectors and only raise the fuel pressure, your fuel flow will not raise by the same percent you raised the fuel pressure.

Flow2=Flow1*Squrt(Press2/Press1)

So if you raise your fuel pressure from 1350bar to 1600bar (thats 18% higher pressure) your fuel flow will raise for about 8% at the same injector opening time...
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(Post Link) post #20 of 665 Old 11-08-10 Thread Starter
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Okay so far I know my current injectors are good for around 200bhp with an intercooler and a gt2256v

Last edited by John_Connor; 28-04-12 at 23:33.
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I think the injectors in your car are the least of your problems.
And I highly doubt it is possible to squeeze 240BHP from GT2256.

You can increase the fuel pressure no matter what injectors do you use...
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I think the injectors in your car are the least of your problems.
And I highly doubt it is possible to squeeze 240BHP from GT2256.

You can increase the fuel pressure no matter what injectors do you use...
Ok then let me in on what exactly are my restrictors right now. How much can I get from a GT2256v ?
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if you have the turbo from a 140/150 bhp 2.4, you have a GT2056V, not a 2256V as used by the 20V 2.4...

someone here got 250+ bhp with a 2256V on a 1.9 JTD... can't remember the name, think it was a random collection of letters...
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It was zbrskz and his engine was 1.9 16V, but since then he upgraded to GTB2056V from 2.4 JTD 20V (159, brera).
But his GT2256V was a "hybrid" afaik, reworked by a turbo specialst.

GT2256 is good for about ~220BHP IMO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155 View Post
if you have the turbo from a 140/150 bhp 2.4, you have a GT2056V, not a 2256V as used by the 20V 2.4...

someone here got 250+ bhp with a 2256V on a 1.9 JTD... can't remember the name, think it was a random collection of letters...
No. I have a gt2256v. I thought gt2256v was on 140/150 as well? Never mind.

A little off topic question by the way. I got my hands on a Ford Cosworth FMIC ( BEHR ) Should I replace the old one? I mean is this big enough considering the small amount of space I have?

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Last edited by John_Connor; 16-08-11 at 08:33.
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