156 2.4 JTD - Project 250+bhp

Hi, since having the second Angel Tuning remap, I have decided that 200bhp/325lbft is not enough

I need more power. I have a decent budget, and I would like some advice as to where I can go for a turbo upgrade. I would like a reliable 250+bhp, 270 would be ideal really

I'm thinking the possible solutions could be a swap to a 156 20V turbo, or maybe the turbo used by the 159 20V. Does anyone know if the exhaust manifolds from these cars would bolt on directly to my engine [JTD 10v 136]?

Current exhaust system will be coming off at some stage anyway, so anything from turbo-back would be replaced with a custom straight through set-up.

I've emailed Turbo Technics, as I've heard good reviews on them from FCCUK, but its been over three weeks and had no response, do they not want my business??

Any advice would be much appreciated

I might be wrong (it can happen), but I reckon Turbo Technics are interested in the "glory" stuff - 2.8 Sierra's & Golf GTI's - I have no doubt they're very capable, but I'm not sure a JTD would interest them

Have you considered converting to a 20v mill, & then tuning that? Bigger injectors, bigger turbo, bigger exhaust (including downpipe, front mounted intercooler... suitable remap... and then you're looking for a new gearbox (on a regular basis).

No offence, but I'm not sure a 156 2.4 JTD is a good basis for your power aspirations.

I'm still looking & listening on your behalf

Well I did advertise it for sale at first, but no-one seemed too interested. Maybe a 330D is the best route to take, as its 250bhp with a remap alone, and turbo upgrades are quite run of the mill... But could I face driving an E46? And there is no better a diesel engine than a JTD 5 cyl for pure fun

It would be easier to just sell it and buy a petrol car, but I'm loathe to own something non-Alfa, and don't fancy trying using forced induction on a normally N/A car. And the fuel economy, although I'm not doing so many miles anymore, it would ****** me right off

On that basis, buy a Saab 9-5 Aero - 2.3 Turbo with 230/250 bhp (depending on year) - the Aero's don't blow up often either, just the lesser variants of this model do. A remap alone will see you up to 280bhp, then you can start with bigger injectors & such like. The manual gearbox is bulletproof too.

I can safely rate my old 9-5 as one of the best cars I've ever owned. It did 35mpg average with the old 150bhp 2.0LPT motor, and never dipped below 30mpg post remap (with 217bhp).

Reason I don't have a Saab now is that for the cash I wanted to spend, I'd have had to have had the 9-5 with the old vectra 2.2 DTI motor in there. Thanks... but no thanks - hence I now have a 156 2.4!

Anyhow, I digress. Back on subject to your 156 & quest for power!

Firstly you are running 160bhp not 200bhp and 250ftlb max not 300ftlb at the flywheel.

250bhp+ is not possible from this engine without doing damage to it.

Realisticly you can part ex it for a 20v version or you can do an engine conversion with the 20v version otherwise its free flowing induction (to reduce smoking) derestricted exhaust, extensive mapping and you will be around 190-200bhp and the 300ftlb. It uses a VNT turbo for a reason, change the turbo and you reduce low down power.

It is not possible to get 64bhp and 75ftlb from a remap alone unless Alfa are stupid....(which they are not)

Originally Posted by Lowtechguy

Firstly you are running 160bhp not 200bhp and 250ftlb max not 300ftlb at the flywheel.

250bhp+ is not possible from this engine without doing damage to it.

Realisticly you can part ex it for a 20v version or you can do an engine conversion with the 20v version otherwise its free flowing induction (to reduce smoking) derestricted exhaust, extensive mapping and you will be around 190-200bhp and the 300ftlb. It uses a VNT turbo for a reason, change the turbo and you reduce low down power.

It is not possible to get 64bhp and 75ftlb from a remap alone unless Alfa are stupid....(which they are not)

What he said... completely agree. Ps, I'm interested in the exhaust.

OA

Originally Posted by OperationAlfa

What he said... completely agree.

Originally Posted by Lowtechguy

Surprised?

lol, Just catching flies as they say...

Just to add regarding the induction, I am doing a few tests at the moment, it seems that if you remove the AFM housing and make the diameter of the pipe larger the afm doesn't like it, put it back in the housing and its happy again, so the kit I end up with will be striaght out the turbo opening up to the afm original size (60mm) then opening up to the filter size 76mm.

The aircon pipes prevent a truely striaght kit but I want it in the wing anyway.

My car has had a full service done and is running tip top so once this is done I am going back to the rolling road for before and after runs with the kit and the two maps the "200bhp - 160bhp one" and the stock map and compair them with the 2 rolling roads I have already... Then map it again. I don't want to touch the exhaust if i can help it but if I dont get over 190bhp with this setup I will...

Originally Posted by Lowtechguy

Firstly you are running 160bhp not 200bhp and 250ftlb max not 300ftlb at the flywheel.

250bhp+ is not possible from this engine without doing damage to it.

Realisticly you can part ex it for a 20v version or you can do an engine conversion with the 20v version otherwise its free flowing induction (to reduce smoking) derestricted exhaust, extensive mapping and you will be around 190-200bhp and the 300ftlb. It uses a VNT turbo for a reason, change the turbo and you reduce low down power.

It is not possible to get 64bhp and 75ftlb from a remap alone unless Alfa are stupid....(which they are not)

Both figures I quoted (200hp/325lbft) are flywheel, from the second remap I got from Angel Tuning, when I upgraded to using a BMC CDA. It is definitely not 160bhp, as since I cleaned and re-oiled the CDA (mega-clogged up) I was level pegging in a drag race with a stock 2003 BMW 330D (204 bhp), and I had 100 kilo more of passenger weight than he did, making gross weight about same. He did pull away initially from the line, but I put this down to RWD advantage, I sat "in his blindspot" all the way to 100mph which is what we agreed our limit to be, not interested in going faster than a ton anyway.

I don't want this to get into an argument about Angel Tuning and whether or not you agree with their method of remapping cars on driveway, if you don't believe me on the power thats fair enough, I've driven enough cars to know that the torque on this is over 300lbft.

There's a guy on here with 300 bhp on a 10v JTD, he's also after upgrading the turbo AGAIN! Guess the quest for power never ends I'll send him a message and hopefully he'll join in on the thread.

Originally Posted by Paddy2bsure

On that basis, buy a Saab 9-5 Aero - 2.3 Turbo with 230/250 bhp (depending on year) - the Aero's don't blow up often either, just the lesser variants of this model do. A remap alone will see you up to 280bhp, then you can start with bigger injectors & such like. The manual gearbox is bulletproof too.

I can safely rate my old 9-5 as one of the best cars I've ever owned. It did 35mpg average with the old 150bhp 2.0LPT motor, and never dipped below 30mpg post remap (with 217bhp).

Reason I don't have a Saab now is that for the cash I wanted to spend, I'd have had to have had the 9-5 with the old vectra 2.2 DTI motor in there. Thanks... but no thanks - hence I now have a 156 2.4!

Anyhow, I digress. Back on subject to your 156 & quest for power!

If I did go back to a petrol car, I think it'd have to be something smaller, and I'd probably get something like a Mk2 MR2, or a Porsche 944 Turbo, fancied one of those for ages

No offence, but Saabs ain't my thing

Anyways, back to JTD chat

Originally Posted by Pud237

There's a guy on here with 300 bhp on a 10v JTD, he's also after upgrading the turbo AGAIN! Guess the quest for power never ends I'll send him a message and hopefully he'll join in on the thread.

Who the hell has this car? And far more importantly can he prove this.

Wasn't your 2.4 stock 136BHP?

just a little input (hey, i couldnt not help out!)

you ask if the 20v manifold would be a straigiht fit, i believe it would be however if you are wanting to go bigger turbo and new exhaust route then i would strongly advise a custom header be made to take whatever turbo you choose to go for. i know my friends garage makes custom stainless headers to the customers spec for about the £250 region, this is for N/A cars tho, i cant imagine a turbo manifold being much more tho.

i notice you are in north yorkshire, maybe tyneside is to far but i could certainly put you in touch with my friend if you were interested, he specialises in getting insane amounts of power out of otherwise pretty tame engines, example is his show car, a 1.6l corsa running throttle bodies and a completely rebuilt head and putting out 190bhp N/A, not to shabby eh

Originally Posted by OperationAlfa

Who the hell has this car? And far more importantly can he prove this.

Wasn't your 2.4 stock 136BHP?

Kevinw - see this thread for more information on his car:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...quiry-kev.html

Originally Posted by marko

just a little input (hey, i couldnt not help out!)

you ask if the 20v manifold would be a straigiht fit, i believe it would be however if you are wanting to go bigger turbo and new exhaust route then i would strongly advise a custom header be made to take whatever turbo you choose to go for. i know my friends garage makes custom stainless headers to the customers spec for about the £250 region, this is for N/A cars tho, i cant imagine a turbo manifold being much more tho.

i notice you are in north yorkshire, maybe tyneside is to far but i could certainly put you in touch with my friend if you were interested, he specialises in getting insane amounts of power out of otherwise pretty tame engines, example is his show car, a 1.6l corsa running throttle bodies and a completely rebuilt head and putting out 190bhp N/A, not to shabby eh

I'd happily come up to Tyneside, I'd rather do 100 miles north than 50 miles south

That Corsa sounds insane! TBs sound lovely on full chat

Originally Posted by Pud237

Kevinw - see this thread for more information on his car:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...quiry-kev.html

I hope you don't believe everything written on the internet.

Seriously though, if you are serious about tuning, get a benchmark rolling road before you start. The reason being is that we all know if a car is faster or not but nobody is a human dyno, torque curves and power curves can trick you to think something is something else.

Believe me I take no pleasure in saying its 160bhp because I was sold the car as 200bhp as it has that map on it, i'm just telling it how it is.

7th of October myself and a few others are getting a rolling road at red dot at £30 a car, Would be nice to see you there amongst others and discuss tuning practically rather than "internet breeze"...

I've no reason to doubt Kevinw, I've spoken to him on here a few times and given time and money I'm sure 300bhp is achievable, reliable in the long term however might be a different story!

The reason I tend to believe mine is 200bhp or roundabouts is that I had the "175 bhp" map on previously, which was BIG step up from standard on the car. I also drove a 2003 JTD SW 150bhp (interior facelift) at the same time as the 175 map and again mine was nippier and pulled much better through the gears. Plus it now keeps up with stock 204bhp 3 series, which push around 360lbft IIRC, even when I'm 1 up.. I'm not saying yours wasn't 160 when you tested it, but it doesn't mean mine is as well.

I will do a rolling road test at some stage, I wouldn't be suprised if it was a few short of 200, given the milage on the car, but I definitely think it will be 190+.

What are your plans for the exhaust side Lowtechguy?

Glad your starting to see sence over the matter.

Exhaust wise alot of people are telling me to remove everything big bore striaght through sort of thing. The problem is that I spent ages reading david vizards books on induction and exhaust design and it just seems like the "powerflow" approach which is something I am 100% against.

Alot of things are contradicting from n/a to turbo like camshaft overlap is completely different, induction design is completely different, inlet is completely different on a diesel from petrol so it might be one of those contradictions but I would rather do some more research before I part with my cash and regret it.

In 3/4 years of owning my punto I had 8 exhaust setups before I was happy, I don't want to make the same mistakes this time.

I think on turbo cars, big bore all the way through is the current theory, because the lack of backpressure doesn't (I think) affect the expulsion of exhaust gasses from the engine as the turbo is "in the way", and if I'm correct, pressure waves cannot flow back through the turbo into the cylinders on any of the four parts of the combustion cycle.

Same reason you can't get that nice raspy sound on turbo cars, because the turbo is "levelling out" the peaks and troughs of the pressure in the exhaust after the turbo, which would be present on an N/A car and make that nice raspy noise as it went through the pipes..

Forgive the lack of technical lingo in my explanation there!