156 2.4 JTD - Project 250+bhp

There is a lot of companies out there that don't know what they're doing, but I know a few who seem to do know what they're doing; Angel Tuning, Red Dot, and possibly Celtic Tuning but not heard much from them for a while. I was interested in their FMIC project but it hasn't seemed to go anywhere..

Was at brands hatch yesturday, had pit passes, was talking to the cre chief for monza sport, guess what car they have which holds a record at castle coomb.

156 2.4 jtd sw

they have the 150bhp version (which has a bigger turbo) and he confirmed that no way the 136bhp version can get near 200bhp... was quite along conversation but that was the important bit you guys needed to hear.

no way ???? use 1600bar pump, bigger turbo, 3" exhaust, fmic, custom exhaust manifold and custom chip. yep yep, a lot more than under 200hp theres no reason to tell people that NO YOU CANT DO THAT OR THAT OR THAT ..many chip tuner companys told you that because they dont want you to brake your car. but : YOU CAN GET OVER 200hp ! the fuelling is the proplem with the standard 10v versions.. 136 model goes up to 185-190hp, but then you need new turbo and more fuel.

I'm not going to bother now, I'm going to keep the 10v and get another car to fulfil my need for speed. If I get sick of that, I'll sell them both and get a 20v 156..

well I'm taking my 20v for a remap at AHMotorsport in Hartley Wintney-he reckons I'll be emerging with 225bhp.
Let you know how it goes..and how long before it drops into limp home mode...

Apparently 225bhp is a good, not-too-hardcore remap for the 20v. I wouldn't worry about limp home mode, but you'll be replacing the clutch if you don't behave yourself though!

about turbos : with gt2359v = +240hp at least. gt2559v about 20hp more. and gt2260v even more. I´m going to use gt2359v or gt2559v. gt2359v should wake around 1500rpm and 250hp / 1.5bar . thats enough for me. gt2359 = mercedes 320cdi . gt2559 = bmw

Are these hybrid turbo's then Jarkko, or just non-variable. The 1500rpm seems like a low spool up rpm for a big blower. Mine seems to spool around 1500rpm as well, and seems like its on full boost by around 2200rpm or so.

How will they mate in with the manifold and exhaust you have at the moment? And also the oil feed, does it all work the same on these turbo's as it does on the stock one?

What are you going to do regarding the wing-mounted intercooler? Surely if you're upping the boost, you'll need a big FMIC?

factory turbos, vnt . need to modify exhaust and make new manifold. oil lines too. big fmic is good example : 220cdi, with 1600bar system, and gt2359vnt turbo, amg cdi injectors.. 170kw / 460nm original cooler, and then only putting big fmic = 191kw / 501nm.. nothing else were modified.

Ah, are you in the 10v that is either 140 or 150 as standard? Mine is the earliest 136, which is non-VNT as standard.. Would this matter what turbo's I could choose from? If I upgraded to a VNT turbo, could my ECU still be mapped properly for this? Thanks.

I have 136hp model also ( lancia lybra ) and it has normal wastegate ihi-turbo . theres no problem using vnt. you already should have coming vacuum pipe to your turbo. its kind of vnt, that you have.. but anyway. chance the vnt-turbo vacuum clock to normal turbo overpressure clock, and thats it. at least in my case. use bleedvalve to have pressure you want. with gt2359 about 1.2 bar is over 200hp. but you need more fuel before that.

hi guys
this is my 1st post, im Aidan from Ireland.
i have just bought a 156 2.4 jtd 136hp version.
i work at auto electrics and diagnostics mostly i also do the remapping and chip tuning.
i work from home though and havent got my dyno yet so i guess you guys would call me a fred in the shed tuner but im working with guys all over europe in the chip tuning business.
i have spent 1000,s of pounds on equipment and not just using ebay tools,
i also have served my time as a mechanic but find it much to boring but i do know whats going on inside an engine etc so im pretty well clued in so to speak even i do say so myself. so hopefully i might be of some help to you guys also.
ive always had a thing about italian cars having an uno turbo 11 years now also.all restored.
so this has brought my attention to fiat alfa engines as being fairly bullet proof.
so anyhow i want to know wat route to take in tuning this car.
i brought it home and put a map in it which left it a lot nicer to drive but it has the holding back issue over 3000rpm. maf on diagnostics is pulling 4.2 volts though. im going to replace it anyhow as i think this is a problem. can someone show me in the right direction as to upgrades.? il fit freeflow exhaust for starters but what are the steps needed please.?

Originally Posted by aidank

hi guys
this is my 1st post, im Aidan from Ireland.
i have just bought a 156 2.4 jtd 136hp version.
i work at auto electrics and diagnostics mostly i also do the remapping and chip tuning.
i work from home though and havent got my dyno yet so i guess you guys would call me a fred in the shed tuner but im working with guys all over europe in the chip tuning business.
i have spent 1000,s of pounds on equipment and not just using ebay tools,
i also have served my time as a mechanic but find it much to boring but i do know whats going on inside an engine etc so im pretty well clued in so to speak even i do say so myself. so hopefully i might be of some help to you guys also.
ive always had a thing about italian cars having an uno turbo 11 years now also.all restored.
so this has brought my attention to fiat alfa engines as being fairly bullet proof.
so anyhow i want to know wat route to take in tuning this car.
i brought it home and put a map in it which left it a lot nicer to drive but it has the holding back issue over 3000rpm. maf on diagnostics is pulling 4.2 volts though. im going to replace it anyhow as i think this is a problem. can someone show me in the right direction as to upgrades.? il fit freeflow exhaust for starters but what are the steps needed please.?

look at the fmic project for the basics.

hi
yes ive already looked at that. but im sure there are a lot of things i can do before i change ic..
exhaust for example wat works and wat doesnt..?
air intake also.?
manual boost adjustment, wat pressure can i run.?
id like to do wat works rather than trial and error.
thanks for any help.
regards

Originally Posted by aidank

hi
yes ive already looked at that. but im sure there are a lot of things i can do before i change ic..
exhaust for example wat works and wat doesnt..?
air intake also.?
manual boost adjustment, wat pressure can i run.?
id like to do wat works rather than trial and error.
thanks for any help.
regards

Ok. In my personal opinion the exhaust on the 140/150 isn't all that bad, there are no filters/cats etc and the boxes are pretty much straight through. It is a 2" or bigger exhaust anyway.

The intake is the problem, as standard it comes from the box (which is fed air from anotherpipe) which is restrictive, up and over 180degrees coming down and then into the turbo via another 90degree bend.
This is what needs sorting out.
It is best to have a cold air supply, so merely removing a couple of bends and sticking on a cone filter will end up with all that hot air around the engine being sucked in - not good.
The best place for the open cone style air filter is in the arch - but this does mean moving the IC.

It is a days work fitting a FMIC and moving the intake.
If this is too much then |I would merely go for a remap which would give 180-185bhp.

The MAP sensor on the 140/150 is a 2.5bar sensor, (1bar is atmostpheric) so the max you will really get is 1.5bar fed to the engine.
In reality, the ECU runs overboost, so as standard you will see a spike (or overboost) to 1.2-1.4bar, then the boost will settle to 1.0-1.2 bar depending on other conditions.
You can only remap so far with this map sensor.
It is a 3pin sensor

The 20v has a 3bar map sensor, allowing up to 2 bar boost typically, most of these when remapped will overboost at 1.8 then settle a little less.
This is a 4pin map sensor as it has built in air temp.

You can buy a 3.5bar or 4bar map sensor from bosch for around 60quid.
These are the 4pin style so you will also need the plug, pins and grommits.

You can use a voltage cap, zenor diodes are a bit iffy, best to build one using an op amp so you can adjust it.
This, if the voltage is set correctly will run the car in overboost mode all the time.

So, to effectively up the boost you will really need an upgraded map sensor, remap, then you will need to sort out breathing and keeping things cool which takes you back to FMIC etc.

Bosch air mass sensors can be made to fit in larger housings, so going from the standard 2.25" TO 3" intake will stop the amf going off the scale, which is needed if you intend to up the boost somewhat.
This will of course need to be remapped into the ecu.

You then move into uprated fuel pumps and different injectors which I know noting about.

There is no point in putting a 3" exhaust on if there is still a restrictive 2.25" intake which routes through 3 or 4 90degree bends before it gets to the turbo.

Mine currently runs over 2.3bar boost, its off the scale on the boost gauge, this needs turning down or else the engine may go bang.
The GT2249 turbo as fitted to the 140/150 will sustain 1.9bar even at max revs.
That is what I intend to run it at.I also run water/meth injection to keep things cool, although I am not sure if it brings any real power benifits.

Only the 20valve performs well at high revs, the old 10valves just can't cope.
If you have a 136bhp, you would be better off saving for a 20valve.
If you have a 140/150, then these can give great results if you don't mind getting your hands dirty, but the power increase is best at low revs.

There is plenty of info on the site telling you what parts to use.

There is also a lot of BS about chipped only cars will huge power, but the only people with dyno results to prove big power are those who have done the hardware mods also.

All of this is hand in hand, put little effort in and the results will be an overfuelling smokey car just to get the power out.

Hope this helps.

thanks lad.. so ill leave exhaust then. mines 136 year 2000 84000 miles.
ill sort the air intake and remap for now then and manual boost adjustment. wat can this engine model run boost.? and will it go into limp.?

Originally Posted by aidank

thanks lad.. so ill leave exhaust then. mines 136 year 2000 84000 miles.
ill sort the air intake and remap for now then and manual boost adjustment. wat can this engine model run boost.? and will it go into limp.?

don't know too much about the 136, there are some differences in the turbo and other bits.
Your turbo is a VNT25.
It should still be a vacuum actuator like the 140/150, so a mechanical bleed valve will not work.
It is the ECU that controls boost.
You should be able to map it up, but only to the limit of the prohibitive map sensor at 1.5bar, I think this also includes overboost!

A voltage cap or 3bar/3.5bar map sensor would be much better, then alter the mapping to suit.

hi
no its normal actuator which looks a nightmare to adjust so ill fit tap probably and ill give it a good service and replace the maf and map to suit. id like to think 180 + hp is possible from it.ill fit a better induction pipe then if its going to make a good difference also..,
egr would be better removed so ill get rid of all that crap too.

check actuator, some here say its vacuum.

hi
yes its normal actuator so i tapped it now peaking about 1.5 bar and over it sometimes map sensor shows only 1 bar wen over boosting for to long but no lose in power so i guess the remap limits are lifted to compensate for this. car runs fairly warm now on the uphill pull. i noticed this the other day wen i bought it it but only wen drivin hard.
are u sure there is no cat on this.? and exhaust wouldnt need to be freeflowed a little to keep temps down a bit because of back pressure.?
thanks for help.

the 136 has a different exhaust setup to the 140/150, there may be a cat after the front pipe, but I am not sure.

There's a cat on the 136, just behind the front wheels when you're underneath it. No lambda probes or anything though, so there'd be no problem in just whipping it straight out.

There is a cat on the 140/150 too, all car's made after 1992 have a cat converter of some sort, but they don't necessarily form part of the engine management system like they do in a petrol..