Ds 3000

Anyone with hands-on experience? I want to use them as my track day pads, but they will have to drive to and from track plus a few days either side on public roads. Safe?

Ferodo do specifically state that that DS3000 are not suitable for road use...

DS2500 are fine on the road though.

Yes I know. They are not illegal to use on the road, but they are at reduced efficiency until warmed up. The question is whether the reduced efficiency is really lethal - or just something to watch out for.

It think it is also due to their extremely high friction.

Making it difficult to drive smoothly - right, that would make sense. Thanks.

why do you not want to use DS2500s for track? they are more than dequit if paired with some good disks, good brake lines and good fluid cheaper too

I am using DS2500 equivalent (EBC Yellowstuff) right now. The brakes are 4 pot Subaru calipers, 295 mm discs, braided lines and performance fluid. More than adequate on the road, but only marginal on track.

Ds 3000 have a friction coefficient of 0.62 (against the DS2500 of 0.47) and a higher temperature tolerance, which increases resistance to fading.

TBH I should really put bigger brakes on the car, but there are budget constraints

Originally Posted by marko

why do you not want to use DS2500s for track? they are more than dequit if paired with some good disks, good brake lines and good fluid cheaper too

Hi Vamos, the DS2500's should be good enough for road tyres I would think?
They can pull a max of -1.1g on my car a few times a lap when its on cups without fade, which is more g's than a road tyre could offer.
I'm sure the big calipers help but the difference with DS2500's over standard was superb for track use.
They have huge resistance to fade in my experience, given upgraded brake fluid (>300 degree BP).
Wear is pretty good too.

Bizzarely EBC yellow stuff apparently ranges from .34 to .42 in coefficient according to this reference, gives you great confidence in their control over standards..
http://www.racebrakes.co.nz/pdf/brake_upgrade.pdf

You can tell they think EBC stuff sucks (as do many of the local trackday regulars over here, who generally think they are rubbish).

That said I may try DS3000's at some point, but I would probably change the pads at the track, and back again afterwards - once I familarize myself with the process, I have never changed a pad yet (lasy ba****d )

Cheers,
TB

Yeah, the heart of the problem, is I am not happy with the EBC pads and want to go back to Ferodo. Seeing as I have a perfectly good set of road pads, I was toying with the idea of getting the 3000s, as they are only a 20 euro premium over the 2500s.

Maybe changing at the track is the way forward?

Remember also I have much smaller front discs than you, for similar weight of car.

This is just idle musing but I wonder would the DS3000's actually be more likely to cause fade in your case?
e.g. they will certianly brake harder for a while, but presumably this will heat the disk up more which is likely your weak link in being able to shed the heat.
You might need Castrol SRF to avoid boiling even normal 300 BP upgraded fluid?

I don't know that all of the above defintely follows, but I don't know that it doesn't either

Snap.

That is exactly the logic that led me to ask the question in the first place. Last thing I need is an upgrade that makes things worse

Dave from Northloop uses DS 3000 on his Clio 172 to good effect, but that is a lighter car

Originally Posted by Trailbraker

This is just idle musing but I wonder would the DS3000's actually be more likely to cause fade in your case?
e.g. they will certianly brake harder for a while, but presumably this will heat the disk up more which is likely your weak link in being able to shed the heat.
You might need Castrol SRF to avoid boiling even normal 300 BP upgraded fluid?

I don't know that all of the above defintely follows, but I don't know that it doesn't either

Well, I'm interested in the result too

I guess you could modulate your brakes to avoid cooking them once you know the limits?

the wrx wouldn't need the same size front brakes as the gta, since the weight is distributed more evenly between the front and the rear axle. I'm sure the rear brakes are bigger than the ones on the GTA.

Take a look at beemers also, they get relatively large rear brakes also (compared to FWD cars) due to the near 50/50 weight distribution.

Originally Posted by Trailbraker

That said I may try DS3000's at some point, but I would probably change the pads at the track, and back again afterwards - once I familarize myself with the process, I have never changed a pad yet (lasy ba****d )

Cheers,
TB

Changing pads on a Brembo / 4 pot setup is very easy - probably only takes about 10mins per side and most of that time is jacking up the car and removing the wheel.

iirc the weight distribution on a rex is 58:42, so pretty far from ideal. Am currently also running standard shocks and springs, so the nose dives a fair bit under braking. Suffice to say, that one day (17 laps) at ring took away most of front (standard) pads, while the rear were barely touched.

Make no mistake, the front is doing all the work on a rex. Contrary to popular opinion, the brakes on imprezas are nothing to shout about as standard and six pot conversions AP 355 mm brake conversions are very popular. Even the standard 330mm Brembos fitted to STi's are generally found wanting for track work.

Edited: as I verified my failing memory on teh weight distribution

Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155

the wrx wouldn't need the same size front brakes as the gta, since the weight is distributed more evenly between the front and the rear axle. I'm sure the rear brakes are bigger than the ones on the GTA.

Take a look at beemers also, they get relatively large rear brakes also (compared to FWD cars) due to the near 50/50 weight distribution.

58-42 is still a lot better than the 156 or 147 GTA, and if you should take on the suspension first, it might give you a better view of what needs to be done on the sub.

Does the WRX have EBD or is the old style mechanical brake bias valve? If it is, you might need to give it some more bias to the rear. Did wonders on the 155, the rears do their share of the work now, ware rate is as high as the fronts too.

Cheers,
CS_155

The main reason for RWD & 4WD having larger rear brakes is because they are braking the driving wheels.

true, the inertia is bigger also, but as Vamos states his rear brakes seem to be doing nowt.

In stead of doing a potentially expensive brake upgrade, it might be more economical to sort the suspension first (assuming an upgraded suspension is on the wish list) and take things from there.

I've heard also that the EBC pads (and even disks) are not so good, no real complaints about Ferodo DS2500 though (hint).

Regards,
CS155

One thing to think about before you start swapping pads around from day to day.
Many pads, including the DS2500/DS3000/etc range need to build up a transfer layer on the disc. That is all done during the bedding-in process. But if you change back to a different style of pad it may scrub that transfer layer off. So when you refit your DS2500/DS3000 pads you may have to build that transfer layer up again before they work to their best.

Interesting, I guess we need to suck it and see, but thanks for the warning. Particularly when fitting the road pad back on!

Interesting debate. Keep it coming guys.

With regards to suspesion, you are absolutely right Stephen, and new coilovers (KW Variant 3) will be going in shortly, so I will see what that does before I decide about the pads. This will complement uprated adjustable ARBs front and rear, castor kit, and camber kit which are already fitted.

Just in case anyone is wondering, it will definitely be Ferodo pads, just undecided at the moment whether DS2500 or DS3000.

Will look at brake bias too, good thinking.

Have just had the opportunity for an extended DS3000 test at the Nurburgring, covering cca 700 km on track plus about 3000 km on the road.

The pads are surprisingly streetable, being quite responsive from cold and they are quite easy to modulate too. I was expecting a lot of noise, but it just did not materialise on my car (although there was another car in our group on DS 3000 where they proved very noisy).

Braking power is very good, but obviously the increased stopping power generates more heat, which in my case resulted in cracked front discs. I did do three consecutive hotlaps (75km) including the grand prix circuit for this to happen though, so perhaps more judicious use with more cooling time would have avoided this issue.

Wear rate is higher than with DS 2500, mine are now at 3-4 mm from 9mm at new, but this is again a function of the greater friction coefficient and not unexpected.

Final oft cited drawback of hot embers marking wheels was not a big issue for me, as my wheels are graphite coloured. For those who care a wash at the end of each track day should take care of it.

In summary, a great track day pad, which is far more streetable than you would expect. I have already ordered another set

Agree with Vamos, but do not forget a touch of copper slip on the back, or they will be NOISY!!

Wear on my DS3000 pads wasn't so bad.
Mine were a little noiser than Vamos's but not too bad but Peters car didn't have any coppaslip..we were wondering was it possible to play a tune on them under braking!

His mechanic had advised against coppaslip with race pads since he said very high temps would melt the coppaslip..

I think they may have very slightly slightly marked my old alloys with embers, I can't be sure the marks werent there before though.

I was feeling a bit of judder on the last day at the ring, but suspect and hope it was from the rear discs (with DS2500 pads) which are fairly worn and now maybe very slightly warped. When rotating the disc with the wheel off you can feel slightly uneven resistance.
The rear discs are over two years old so can't complain.

If it turns out that it is the front discs then the DS3000's are defintely harder on discs than DS2500's since I wasn't really on the limit of the brakes capabiltities at the ring due to being on road tyres (the brakes had more decelleration than the tyres could offer).
Normally I can thrash the brakes sensless on type-R tyres and they last just fine.

RE being streetable, yes'ish - noise being the main issue
I will however be immediately taking them off if I have no track days planned for a while.

Cheers,
TB