Alfa 156 2.4 JTD: Project 250bhp!!!

[156Chris]

The time has come to do another batch of upgrades on my car, this time more power (suspension/brakes/styling is all sorted).


My (current) plan is

1. Decat
2. FMIC
3. High flow cone filter (and sort out the existing labyrinth pipework)
4. 3 bar map sensor
5. new Custom remap

Plus I might look at uprating the injectors and possibly installing a higher pressure fuel pump ...

I don't know whether 250bhp is realistic with these mods (although jasons did get 250bhp on his car apparently with similar mods), but it'll be good fun anyway

... I'll keep this thread updated with my progress!!!

[1of1]

Nice, 'appy Crimbo

[Pud237]

Bring it on. I think you will need a bigger turbo for sure though.

[bear1]

The injector and MAP part interests me a lot, which injectors do you plan to use? which MAP can handle the 3 bars aswell?

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by 1of1

Nice, 'appy Crimbo

Thanks

Originally Posted by Pud237

Bring it on. I think you will need a bigger turbo for sure though.

Possibly, I'll see what I can get with the existing turbo, it's easily good for an extra 0.5 bar of boost (I've currently got about 200bhp ... 1/3 more boost = 1/3 more air = 1/3 more fuel = 1/3 more power = 266 bhp ) ... but if/when it breaks I'll put on a bigger one

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by bear1

The injector and MAP part interests me a lot, which injectors do you plan to use? which MAP can handle the 3 bars aswell?

Probably just the injectors for one of the newer JTDm's (they produce a much finer spray than the ones that are currently on the car) although I'm not sure how much of an increase that would give me.

Also the JTDm's all have the 3 bar sensors (2 bar boost + 1 bar atmospheric), which (apparently) fit although the electrical connector is slightly different as the JTDm ones also have a temperature sensor built into the MAP

[bear1]

hmm injectors i presume from the later FL 156? 16v/20v version? Ive got the 140 version of the 2.4 and im looking at some mods aswell. what kind of power are you thinking from these two mods alone? 20bhp?

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by bear1

hmm injectors i presume from the later FL 156? 16v/20v version? Ive got the 140 version of the 2.4 and im looking at some mods aswell. what kind of power are you thinking from these two mods alone? 20bhp?

Well if you put in a new MAP you'll HAVE to get a remap otherwise you car just won't run right ... as for the increase, I've not no real idea (as I haven't done anything yet!!!)

[bear1]

Im doing my mods a bit at a time (money) ive already done the decat and next im thinking injectors, just not sure if the injectors from the later jtds fit the 10v

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by bear1

Im doing my mods a bit at a time (money) ive already done the decat and next im thinking injectors, just not sure if the injectors from the later jtds fit the 10v

Which is why it's on my "maybe" list ... tbh I don't think that there would be huge gains in replacing them

[Cuore_Sportivo_155]

Originally Posted by 156Chris

Thanks




Possibly, I'll see what I can get with the existing turbo, it's easily good for an extra 0.5 bar of boost (I've currently got about 200bhp ... 1/3 more boost = 1/3 more air = 1/3 more fuel = 1/3 more power = 266 bhp ) ... but if/when it breaks I'll put on a bigger one

are you running 1 bar boost now? then another 0.5 bar will only give you 25% extra air, provided you can keep the intake temps the same.... 1 bar atmospheric pressure + 1 bar boost = 2 bar, remember?

What engine do you have exactly? and are you sure you're not already running higher boost?

I was going for the same upgrades on my 136 bhp jtd, but I wrecked it last week. nevertheless, I expected to top out somewhere around 220-240 bhp because the fuel pump would be the limit.

Here's what I reckon I needed:
- Turbo (I fitted a GT2256V from a 175 BHP m-jet)
- FMIC
- Euro3 injectors
- boost controller (you only need this with the 136 bhp)
- Decat
- better downpipe from turbo
- proper remap
- Bigger MAF

I was nearly there aswell, had sourced a GTA MAF housing and an enclosed cone filter (jr airbox) and the boost controller... just needed the euro3 injectors fitting (which I have aswell) and a proper remap

[Pud237]

Am I right in saying the 2.4 10v CF2 uses a different cam, which would give more top end given everything else being the same if it was fitted in a CF3?

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155

are you running 1 bar boost now? then another 0.5 bar will only give you 25% extra air, provided you can keep the intake temps the same.... 1 bar atmospheric pressure + 1 bar boost = 2 bar, remember?

What engine do you have exactly? and are you sure you're not already running

I've got the euro 3 engine, those calculations were just Tongue in cheek!! The actual calculation would be far more complicated, tbh any calculation that is performed would only really be an approximation.

My current map sensor reads up to 1.5 bar of boost so that is actually Only 20% more in reality, with the new map sensor

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by Pud237

Am I right in saying the 2.4 10v CF2 uses a different cam, which would give more top end given everything else being the same if it was fitted in a CF3?

Top end is where I'm looking for more power, with the remap I'm probably going to get the torque limited to 325ftlb as my current 355ftlb does put a strain on the transmission

[yan.ko]

just my 50 cents:

- stock turbo (GT2256) would be fine for these HP figures but with rather low AFR
- 16/20V injectors are unusable on 8/10V heads, btw the CF3 CR-IPS19-ZEREK10S-BOSCH 0445110119 are sufficient
- see how I dealt with intake system ... http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...159-turbo.html (8V JTD turbo upgrade (200/210HP 159 turbo))
- you may need to upgrade your fuel pump and rail sensor as well to keep injection window short as possible - 10/20V pump flow capability is just matter of pulley, although the 20V may be prepared better for higher rpms

[jbsmith1]

Good luck with the project Chris very interesting, and don't for get to post plenty of pics of the progress.

[Pud237]

Originally Posted by 156Chris

Top end is where I'm looking for more power, with the remap I'm probably going to get the torque limited to 325ftlb as my current 355ftlb does put a strain on the transmission

Do a search for the CF2 10v cam and fitting to the CF3, I think Squadra have done some research into this and with the CF2 the downturn of the power curve is much less pronounced as you pull to the redline. My old CF2 used to rev out to 5k all the time but all my CF3 10vs have never wanted to go much past 4k. I definitely think there is something in this, ePer shows them as being different part numbers too.

You may need to optimise the plenum etc to help get the air in as I think you will really struggle to see 250bhp without using a bigger turbo unless you just throw masses of fuel into it which is never good.

[Pud237]

Also are you considering water/meth injection?

[TribesMan]

Stock 10V turbo is not capable of that power figures... (I'm talking about real power figures that are NOT measured on "optimistic dynos"). Even with 20V turbo you would need to run very rich AFR to do 250BHP. And the difference between 10V and 20V turbo is too small to be worth considering it as an upgrade. Also you need to consider the reliability of the system. Pushing the stock turbo till 2.7 bar in higher revs is not the best idea IMO. And you will need that kind of pressure to do it "smokefree".

For realistic 250BHP you will need GTB2056V, but if you are in a process of upgrading the turbo, then just go for GTB2260VK... it will do 280+ BHP easily on your engine. If you can tweak your fuel pump to be able to deliver so much fuel. Stock CF3 injectors should be able to support well over 250BHP. But the pump is a weak point of the system.

[yan.ko]

GTB2260VK(RL) would be indeed the most appropriate solution

[Cuore_Sportivo_155]

Originally Posted by Pud237

Am I right in saying the 2.4 10v CF2 uses a different cam, which would give more top end given everything else being the same if it was fitted in a CF3?

that's what I'm thinking aswell...

the cam is definitely different between cf2 and cf3, the latter giving more oomph low down but I'm not sure that's wanted on a big bhp 2.4...

[vsd]

What CF3 2,4 do you have - 140 or 150 hp?
The 150 hp version already has 3 bar maf and GT2256
What absolute pressure do you need to achieve 200 and 250 hp on 2,4 10v 150 hp.

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by Pud237

Also are you considering water/meth injection?

Not at the moment, what sort of gains do you actually get?

Originally Posted by TribesMan

Stock 10V turbo is not capable of that power figures... (I'm talking about real power figures that are NOT measured on "optimistic dynos"). Even with 20V turbo you would need to run very rich AFR to do 250BHP. And the difference between 10V and 20V turbo is too small to be worth considering it as an upgrade. Also you need to consider the reliability of the system. Pushing the stock turbo till 2.7 bar in higher revs is not the best idea IMO. And you will need that kind of pressure to do it "smokefree".

For realistic 250BHP you will need GTB2056V, but if you are in a process of upgrading the turbo, then just go for GTB2260VK... it will do 280+ BHP easily on your engine. If you can tweak your fuel pump to be able to deliver so much fuel. Stock CF3 injectors should be able to support well over 250BHP. But the pump is a weak point of the system.

Originally Posted by yan.ko

GTB2260VK(RL) would be indeed the most appropriate solution

you boys with your bigger turbos, how about I pencil it in, see what power I get with stock and then see about changing it???

Originally Posted by vsd

What CF3 2,4 do you have - 140 or 150 hp?
The 150 hp version already has 3 bar maf and GT2256
What absolute pressure do you need to achieve 200 and 250 hp on 2,4 10v 150 hp.

Nope, there is no difference in engine between the 140 and 150 bhp versions (just a slightly different map), are you thinking of the comparison between the Euro3 10v and then 175bhp 20v version?

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155

that's what I'm thinking aswell...

the cam is definitely different between cf2 and cf3, the latter giving more oomph low down but I'm not sure that's wanted on a big bhp 2.4...

I'll look at getting it done on my next cambelt which is due in 20k/2 years (IIRC)

[Allerd]

I'm still looking for a nice gtb2260, wen I find one, my lightly modified gt2256 wil be up for sale.
It does 247hp/515nm on my 20v