MAP Sensor Upgrade...

[156Chris]

I'm (half) looking at upgrading my map sensor so that I can (safely) apply more boost, the sensor on my car is a 1.5bar boost (2.5 absolute) + a small overboost region, ideally I'd like to get a 2bar boost sensor with the same characteristics. Also it would be ideal if it was the same form factor so it could just plug in ...

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/lang...cification.pdf gives details of various bosch map sensors of which I believe that 0 281 002 487 is my current version (although


Having a bit of a look around the 156 20v map sensor is of the same form factor but seems to have a different part number, does anyone know the specifications for this?


Any other options??

[156Chris]

actualy just had bit more of a look and the map sensor for the 20v seems to be the same as for the 159/brera so looks like that isn't an option

[Cuore_Sportivo_155]

don't know about the 20V jtd sensor, but the 16V jtd has a 3 bar Map sensor... some of the 8v jtd owners here have these....

[156Chris]

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/vie...id=59412193014 like this one?

[David C]

Originally Posted by 156Chris

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/vie...id=59412193014 like this one?

The Portland Group....... oh dear!!

They have a reputation for crap MAF sensors...

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by David C

The Portland Group....... oh dear!!

They have a reputation for crap MAF sensors...

It was just the first one that came out of a search tbh ... I'd probably get it from my local auto factors (that way it is easier to take it back!!!!)

[yan.ko]

According to the ePer, 20V 156 uses the same MAP sensor as 16V, which is 3bar MAP - Alfa no. 55206797 - Bosch 0 281 002 845.

If you swap it for some wider range one, you will need a remap modifying MAP linearisation map for correct functionality.

Update: Have checked ECU of 166 2.4JTD 20V - it also has 3bar MAP

[A6]

Originally Posted by David C

The Portland Group....... oh dear!!

They have a reputation for crap MAF sensors...

Second this statement had my fingers burnt with them too I'm sure they are not genuine parts as quoted.

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by yan.ko

According to the ePer, 20V 156 uses the same MAP sensor as 16V, which is 3bar MAP - Alfa no. 55206797 - Bosch 0 281 002 845.

If you swap it for some wider range one, you will a remap modifying MAP linearisation map.

Looking at it they are a slightly different shape to the 10v (see P37 of the link I posted, my MAP sensor (10v) is drawing 2 and I think the 20v is drawing 3), also the 20v has a temperature sensor but that can obviously just be ignored for my purposes.

Luckily the part that gets "stuck" into the engine is the same diameter, looking at the pictures the gap between the sensor and the screw attachment seems to be about the same so hopefully it should just about fit ...


... oh and yes I know I'll have to get my MAP modified

[yan.ko]

Doesn't matter. These form factors are interchangeable. You only may need to buy and exchange the connector as well, as the older ones are 3pin MAPs, while these newer are 4pin TMAPs. I did it on my car (having 3.5bar TMAP now).

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by yan.ko

Doesn't matter. These form factors are interchangeable. You only may need to buy and exchange the connector as well, as the older ones are 3pin MAPs, while these newer are 4pin TMAPs. I did it on my car (having 3.5bar TMAP now).

Brilliant thanks alot (although I don't think I'll risk 3.5bar!!! ... yet)

[Martin_Esher]

@ Yan.ko - could you tell us a little more about that upgrade yan.ko? I have an old 2002 10v and I'm currently about to embark on MAP, MAF and EGR cleaning / replacement so if there is a chance to replace the MAP with one that will increase my cars umph I would be interested to look into that further. Are we saying that changing the MAP sensor and getting the ECU remaped is all thats needed, or are there extra bits that will have to be done?

Is changing to the 4 pin TMAP connector easy enough?

And what would be the performance difference and lifespan effect vs just a remap?

Thanks

[yan.ko]

Hi Martin, it's just a wider range sensor, it won't give you any more oomph itself.

Btw changing to 4pin TMAP is easy, if you are familliar with soldering and capable to get needed plug and accessories.

[jasons]

I did thes years ago on my old 2.4 10v.

A long time ago, but from memory you will need to find a suitable connector for the 3 bar MAP, I think some vauxhall connectors will fit, then solder into loom.

Would I do it again, NO!

I thought when I did it, it could be mapped in. Well it can, if you have extensive knowledge - as in you worked for Alfa in the ECU calibration/tuning dept.

All the remappers can do is alter the fuelling and boost maps, perhaps a little more, but I felt for this to really work, it needed much more.

If I was doing it again, I would ditch the standard ECU and put in an aftermarket, I don't know if DTA, Emarald etc make ECU's for diesels. If you could get one, you would have a real flying machine, but the standard ECU just wouldn't take that (250bhp+) level of performance, it was way too far from its designed paramaters.

Would I tune the balls off a diesel again, YES, if it was a BMW all alloy engine.
I would go down a similar route to Alpina, turbo, injectors etc, but keep it light so it could make the turn for the next corner, something a heavyweight diesel struggles to do - ever driven a 535d (twin turbo BMW)?

[blackbravo]

Originally Posted by Cuore_Sportivo_155

don't know about the 20V jtd sensor, but the 16V jtd has a 3 bar Map sensor... some of the 8v jtd owners here have these....

hi there, if i get one map sensor of a 147 16v is p&p in my 8v engine? and is for sure that all 16 v are 3bar?

thanks

[yan.ko]

Hi, did you read previous posts? Yes, these are 3bar ones, no they will not fit directly - those newer one are 4pin TMAP, while older are 3pin MAP.

[blackbravo]

i just wanna get sure that all 16v are 3bar.

is there any "diy" to explain the convertion 4 pi to 3?

thanks

[JS JTD]

Originally Posted by jasons

I did thes years ago on my old 2.4 10v.

A long time ago, but from memory you will need to find a suitable connector for the 3 bar MAP, I think some vauxhall connectors will fit, then solder into loom.

Would I do it again, NO!

I thought when I did it, it could be mapped in. Well it can, if you have extensive knowledge - as in you worked for Alfa in the ECU calibration/tuning dept.

All the remappers can do is alter the fuelling and boost maps, perhaps a little more, but I felt for this to really work, it needed much more.

If I was doing it again, I would ditch the standard ECU and put in an aftermarket, I don't know if DTA, Emarald etc make ECU's for diesels. If you could get one, you would have a real flying machine, but the standard ECU just wouldn't take that (250bhp+) level of performance, it was way too far from its designed paramaters.

Would I tune the balls off a diesel again, YES, if it was a BMW all alloy engine.
I would go down a similar route to Alpina, turbo, injectors etc, but keep it light so it could make the turn for the next corner, something a heavyweight diesel struggles to do - ever driven a 535d (twin turbo BMW)?

Replacing a 2.5 bar map for a 3 bar one and adjusting the software accordingly isn't rocket science. Using an aftermarket ecu is much, much more work because you have to fill everything in rather than making mods to existing maps.

Btw a simple method to use the 3 bar map is with separate connectors like I did with my 147 JTD 8v.

[blackbravo]

JS JTD do you have any pictures of your map?

because the sensors are very different , the biggest is the place of the screw ...

this 8v
http://www.expressauto24.net/WebRoot...p0043_copy.jpg

vs 16v

http://www.expressauto24.net/WebRoot...ap437_copy.jpg


any help? i just don´t wanna buy something that will not work....

thanks for all

[yan.ko]

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...ml#post4504668 (MAP Sensor Upgrade...)

[jasons]

Originally Posted by JS JTD

Replacing a 2.5 bar map for a 3 bar one and adjusting the software accordingly isn't rocket science. Using an aftermarket ecu is much, much more work because you have to fill everything in rather than making mods to existing maps.

Btw a simple method to use the 3 bar map is with separate connectors like I did with my 147 JTD 8v.

so what exactly was altered in your map?

this is parts of a conversation with a guy who work in tuning dept at jaguar uk.
the bosch ecu's come with thousands of pages of instructions, if you buy them all at a huge cost (40k). even companies like jaguar only buy the bits they need. They work very hard on the baseline maps - the intracate bits most tuners have no idea about.
A chap who worked in this dept. at jag explained so much, jag even sent a car out for a remap (diesel) just to see what these tuner guys do. The answer from the guy at Jag was 'very little', they simply altered the basic fuel and boost map and left alone all the intracate stuff he/they were trained on and played with.
I asked him how hard it would be to map in a merc map sensor, which works on a 1volt start point rarther than the alfa start voltage of 2volts, the answer was about 3mins, providing they had the purchased the relevant papers from bosch that explain where in the map it would be, had jag purchased them - not likely, not at the price bosch charge and as it is not needed in jag, they wouldn't have wasted the money.

after this conversation it was clear that unless these papers or details regarding sections of the maps are available, there is little knowledge other than recognising the typical fuel, boost, pedal, torque limit maps etc.

yes, aftermarket ecu's for diesels are probably not off the shelf like they are for petrols. at least with petrol ecu's, there are generally at least a dozen varied maps depending on mods you can choose to start with.

I found on my alfa that the ecu would just try and shutdown and slowdown the car.

if you know a way round this and have detailed info, please share it, my old car has been damaged (front end) and is technically a write off (albeit little damage) so if you know this info, I wouldn't mind my car doing what no one else could do with it, that is, make it scream, 250bhp as a basic start point if you know how...

[yan.ko]

They sent the jag to the wrong tuner. I would kick such tuner in the ass rather then paying for his work. Faking fueling maps is not the right way, although it's what 90% of "tuners" do

Technically, to adopt wider range MAP, you need to change sensor voltage linearisation map in the ECU, and limit values for plausibility test. That's all. Not a big deal. Good tuner should know how to do it.

[JS JTD]

Originally Posted by yan.ko

They sent the jag to the wrong tuner. I would kick such tuner in the ass rather then paying for his work. Faking fueling maps is not the right way, although it's what 90% of "tuners" do

Technically, to adopt wider range MAP, you need to change sensor voltage linearisation map in the ECU, and limit values for plausibility test. That's all. Not a big deal. Good tuner should know how to do it.

+1

Can't agree more.

[156Chris]

Originally Posted by jasons

...

if you know a way round this and have detailed info, please share it, my old car has been damaged (front end) and is technically a write off (albeit little damage) so if you know this info, I wouldn't mind my car doing what no one else could do with it, that is, make it scream, 250bhp as a basic start point if you know how...

So sounds like you have an upgraded turbo and map sensor available ....

[jasons]

so we just need to know a tuner who can do it?

or where in the map and what needs changing?


we all know its as easy as abc with the right knowledge, but still no further on in getting it done!


someone please provide either the info, or details of someone with the knowledge in the uk who can do it!