Angel map, with or without BMC?!

Hi there, I'm going to be popping to angel to get a map in a few weeks time(nothing booked yet though) and I've pinged through an e:mail asking about it etc. The map itself will take my car up to roughly 225bhp and 350lb/ft with the standard filter fitted.

I wondered about adding on the BMC filter which is £180, but the guy at Angel said about a new induction kit/filter they have which is £450 , but it was recently tested on an Alfa 2.0 TS(?!) which gained 20bhp with just the filter. He said he'd do me a deal with the map and one of these filters for £650.

Is having anything other than the standard filter going to really make that much difference with an angel map? From things I read and done myself previously, it's a struggle to even get anywhere near 10bhp with just fitting a filter.

So basicially, is adding the filter at the same time as the map worth it or not really?!

Cheers,

Mark

A new 'performance air filter/induction kit' will be worth an additional 20bhp over the standard remap

I find that a bit hard to believe

Adding a filter and exhaust it's always worth it before having a remap as you'll get the best results !!

Have you investigated Red Dot

If you join the AO Club you'll get a 10% discount from them too !!

I dont believe it.

simple as.

The BMC CDA is a very good system but i feel it is higely over priced. £450 is WAY to much for an induction kit and 20bhp? no way.

ps. feel free to prove me wrong

My advice is get the BMC-CDA....

About that 20bhp gain on N/A TS engine...no way...if they can prove us wrong, we will buy that whatever filter

Originally Posted by Mark_JTD

but it was recently tested on an Alfa 2.0 TS(?!) which gained 20bhp with just the filter. He said he'd do me a deal with the map and one of these filters for £650.


Mark

Absolute borrocks!!! The most I have ever seen on a 2.0 was about 7BHP peak.



I know what I would do..... ^^ As Nomad said. ^^


As you have a turbo diesel £175 I'd say that the CDA may be a good investment, however you are possibly putting off the next buyer if you sell as the car will no longer be "standard"

It won't gain 20bhp - but happy to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by nomad

A new 'performance air filter/induction kit' will be worth an additional 20bhp over the standard remap

Not sure if it was the way he worded the e:mail, but it was definitely a 20bhp gain - seemed as that's how they were warranting £450 for just a filter!!

Originally Posted by nomad

Adding a filter and exhaust it's always worth it before having a remap as you'll get the best results !!

My understanding is that it's purely chipping the car(similar to superchips), not doing a live-map specifically to the car. So it's pretty much loading software into the ECU to replace the standard one, not adjusting any timing, advance settings etc specifically to the car, so I'm not sure it would benefit that much having it all done before the map as it's a generic map. That's my understanding though, so I'm probably wrong.

Originally Posted by nomad

If you join the AO Club you'll get a 10% discount from them too !!

Is that Red Dot or Angel?

Cheers for the response,

Mark

Originally Posted by Mark_JTD

Not sure if it was the way he worded the e:mail, but it was definitely a 20bhp gain - seemed as that's how they were warranting £450 for just a filter!!

It must be the filter and the map on an NA to get that increase then !!

Originally Posted by Mark_JTD

My understanding is that it's purely chipping the car(similar to superchips), not doing a live-map specifically to the car. So it's pretty much loading software into the ECU to replace the standard one, not adjusting any timing, advance settings etc, so I'm not sure it would benefit that much having it all done before the map.

I don't think Angel do 'chips' they use modified Red Dot maps IIRC !!

If they're just dumping a standard map onto your ECU then no it won't be worth it but if the have a learning ECU it will be !!

Originally Posted by Mark_JTD

Is that Red Dot or Angel?
Cheers for the response,

Originally Posted by nomad

Have you investigated Red Dot
If you join the AO Club you'll get a 10% discount from them too !!

Sorry didn't notice that you're a Medio member can you see the Member discounts page in the AO Club area mark

Club Discounts

As medio member you still qualify for the 10% Red Dot discount.

oh, and if your getting all that power , keep plenty of dosh over for a new clutch any time soon

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm hoping the clutch will last a while after the map, I've seen a couple of posts where the uprated clutch is about £230, but then it's the fitting which will probably be another £3-400 I'd guess?! So it's more realistically £1k for a useable re-map then rather than the £350 just for the map.

I've had airfilters and induction kits on cars before, but they've only been <£60 I think. It just seems alot of money for a few extra bhp that might not even be that noticeable.

Sorry Nomad, it's me trying to sneakily type whilst still appearing to be working not being clear. I didn't mean a chip previously, I just ment similiar to superchips in that it's a generic map, not a RR map specifically to the car and taking into account modifications etc.

Cheers for the responses everyone.

I'll have to ask my girlfriend now for extra pocket money to save up for when the clutch gives up!

Thanks,

Mark

Get a proper RR remap Mark... and tell the GF that you got a discount/bargain on it !!

Originally Posted by nomad

It must be the filter and the map on an NA to get that increase then !!

I don't think Angel do 'chips' they use modified Red Dot maps IIRC !!

If they're just dumping a standard map onto your ECU then no it won't be worth it but if the have a learning ECU it will be !!

That sounds about right.. I wonder whats the new filter they've considered using? Augusto from Red Dot recommended the induction pipe from GSR engineering and a modified airbox from a 3.0 GTV with a cotton filter as being "the best" induction solution.. GSR charge £350 for that silicone pipe alone!

The BMC CDA & Remap package from Angel is very good value if you ask me. I got this package and Nige spent about an hour and a half on a cold January morning fitting the CDA and then remapping it for £300 all in. Couldn't fault that.

Originally Posted by belfast bob

oh, and if your getting all that power , keep plenty of dosh over for a new clutch any time soon

Yep, my clutch started slipping straight away, but when Nige tested the car before the remap & CDA he did say it would probably need one if he stuck the 'mad map' on..

Also, check this thread on 156.net out for induction kits and what people think of them:

Alfa Romeo forum: Induction Poll

you have the 175 bhp version?

I tried an angel map, it smoked bad low down, lacked performance, and compared to a £3.99 35,000 tuning file map off ebay, was not a patch on the proven 192bhp map (this was for a 140bhp) that came off ebay.
I don't know what power angel claimed with their map, and nor do I know what it produced on a rolling road, but I would guess at 165-170bhp, but I don't doubt that they would claim much more for it.
I would be very carefull about claims made for chipping on your driveway, some chippers make stupidly high claims just to get you to go for them, then if you do dyno prove it like some here have done, find that you are 30bhp down.

A bmc may help a couple of bhp, thats all, to get anything good out of a JTD, 3.5 bar map sensor, FMIC, 3,1/4" maf and straight intake, these are the minimum to extract any form of real power, an air filter alone is a great way of extracting turnover & profit mind, best of british to him!

Originally Posted by jasons

I tried an angel map, it smoked bad low down, lacked performance, and compared to a £3.99 35,000 tuning file map off ebay, was not a patch on the proven 192bhp map (this was for a 140bhp) that came off ebay.

When did you try the Angel map?

Originally Posted by jasons

you have the 175 bhp version?

Yup, that's the one I have. Is that what you had mapped or the 140bhp you mentioned?!

Originally Posted by jasons

A bmc may help a couple of bhp, thats all, to get anything good out of a JTD, 3.5 bar map sensor, FMIC, 3,1/4" maf and straight intake, these are the minimum to extract any form of real power, an air filter alone is a great way of extracting turnover & profit mind, best of british to him!

Please could you possibly expand on the 3.5 bar map sensor and 3 1/4" maf?! Are these only required with a FMIC and bigger pipework etc or worth getting with just a re-map & BMC CDA?!

Many thanks,

Mark

Pud, I tried the angel map a month or two back.


I have the 140bhp version, 10 valves less.

The biggest restiction on these cars is the intake system, have a look and count all thoses bends the intake goes round before getting to the turbo.

The standard intercooler isn't bad in its size, just in a poor location due to the amount of cold air that can get to it.
A SAAB 900 (94-98) turbo intercooler fits really well behind the bumper and is an easy job to do. It pipes up well also.

With a FMIC you will find you end up with a straight and easy route for the intake to go into the front wing where the old IC was, put a big air filter there which has a cold air supply through the front bumper.

A mild remap will be fine with the standard intake.

If you get a well tuned high power map, you will find all the power is on the first 1/2" of throttle (the air mass hits 5v max so quickley with the extra air passing through).
I had this problem, and 4 up in a SW with a boot full of luggage I could pull away in 2nd on an uphill incline and still spin the wheels (more by accident) even with a LSD fitted.
It may be fun, but it is clutch destroying and inpracticle for everyday driving.

So the 80mm intake puts all rthis back to being linear and progressive.

you have a 3bar map sensor as standard on that engine, so you can measure up to 2bar in the intake.
You will probably have overboost mode also, so really you will pull 1.8 or 1.9 bar of boost in overboost then see it drop to 1.6/1.7bar afterwards.
To be fair, thats plenty of boost.
A 3.5 bar will measure an extra half bar, up tp 2.5 bar pressure (you are in 1bar atmospheric)

Summary, you will get insane power if you do the above, you will need to map it in at higher revs (keep the boost low before 2500rpm) to save the box and clutch.
If not, just get a map and leave the BMC.