Further Barke Problems

You've confirmed my thoughts that the brakes should be better than they are. If yours are as good as your wife's Punto, then by analogy I expect mine should be as good as my '05 Fiesta - which they most definitely are not at the moment !
Spoke to Richard at ClassicAlfa today - he reckons that the new M/C may be at fault. Apparently there is a batch of faulty Single AND Dual Circuit Master cylinders going around .

Damn.. another one caught by these faulty bloody master cylinders.
If I'd spotted this thread earlier I would have mentioned that, if you do a search on here you will see referances to this in earlier threads.

It's a fairly well known problem and often crops up in brake problem discussions over on the Owners club forum (a fine resource for 105 series cars), I've had personal experience of it when I had to replace a brand new M/C with a used one kindly donated by a friend.

In good condition 105 Brakes are pretty good, they are not over assisted like a lot of modern cars, so you need to give them a good shove. Out of my little fleet of cars, a 1999 Punto, a 2001 Astra, a 156GTA, 1968 Morris Minor, I reckon only the GTA would outbrake my 1750GTV.

Well, the car is ready to pick up. The rear calipers were okay, and the handbrake shoes and drums have been cleaned of tiny amounts of corrosion. The only adjustment that has been made has been to increse the free pedal movement - the though being that the brakes begin to "drag" as they get warm after sustained use, leading to the loss of brake pedal.
If this does not cure, it'll be a replacement M/C.

Will report back - keep all possible fingers crossed!

Hi Phil, any news whether your problemis now fixed? My bertie is displaying similar symptoms to yours (although not to a great extent) where I noticed my rear discs were quite warm compared to the fronts after a run the other day.

Might try the pedaltravel adjustment first to see if that rectifies.

Paul

Originally Posted by Cosmo

They sure are better than the brakes the fool who originally specified on my heavy 1965 Mustang. Unassisted drums all round

Reminds me of the Camaros that appeared at Silverstone, if I'm correct in the same bill as the Braodspeed Jag XJ coupes. They were going well, then all of a sudden gone after a misearble 5 laps or so. Then back again
Then Gone again
Then back again
..and so on untill the pitts ran out of pads!!

Originally Posted by Wrenched

Reminds me of the Camaros that appeared at Silverstone, if I'm correct in the same bill as the Braodspeed Jag XJ coupes.

I have the same basic brakes + suspension on my XJR-S as those XJ-12 coupes, with very large 4 pot calipers at the front. Difference is they were using two calipers per disc!! And a lot of brake ducting.

Paul,
Sorry I've not reported back earlier - was feeling a little angry about the car! Anyway, the car is absolutely no better, and possibly a little worse since the calipers have been cleaned and the pedal adjusted. I picked it up on Sat morning - the pedal now has an extra inch of travel before anything happens which means that the pedal is on the floor nearly before braking. It also has absolutely NO pedal feel. I was so annoyed (and concerned) that I took it to Kwik Fit for a free brake test - basically he did a few tests (after saying the brakes were s**t ) and said he reckoned the master cylinder still. He said he'd do the work for me, but suggested I'd be better off finding a specialist. So I contacted Dave Woods, the AROC Limcolnshire Secretary who pointed me in the direction of Tom and Phil at BLS Automotive in Lincoln. Had a good chat to Tom, he said he had dealt with a lot of 105 cars with the twin servo/twin circuit system that had the same problem - normally down to the servos which apparently are hard to test in the 'normal' way. Suffice to say it's booked in for repair with Tom in early September.
If I were you I wouldn't put any more travel in your pedal - the rear whells were definitely still warmer that the front - so I'm not entirely sure what's going on there - only thing I can think is that the rear drive set-up makes the rear of the car warmer
I'm now resigned to just keeping the car clean until September - how depressing, I had so many plans for it this Summer - but I just don't dare take it very far at the moment

Originally Posted by philmiles83

the rear whells were definitely still warmer that the front - so I'm not entirely sure what's going on there - only thing I can think is that the rear drive set-up makes the rear of the car warmer

With a standard, front engine car something like 70% of braking is done on the front wheels as the weight of the car will naturally transfer to the front as you start braking. It also is set up that way if you have separate circuits as you have more control at the front. Your front brakes should be hotter than the rears, so something is definitely wrong. Good that you've found a specialist, I think that's the way to go right now.

I'm now resigned to just keeping the car clean until September - how depressing, I had so many plans for it this Summer - but I just don't dare take it very far at the moment

Summer? What summer?

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Summer? What summer?

Well quite!!

Sorry to hear you still have a problem, phil. Hope they can solve it.

I was wondering if the rear brake regulator has ever been known to cause this type of problem. Mine looks like it is the oldest part of the system so it could be the culprit. Has anyone had any experiences of this part going wrong?

Paul.

General opinion on the owners club site is that the regulators are fairly robust, hence probably why it's the oldest part on the system. I suspected mine was a bit off, as I had very bad rear biased. I changed it for an adjustable one, but at the same time changed all the pads, so I will never know. I suspect it was OK though as my front pads were badly glazed after a track day.

As regards warm rear hubs, I noticed this on mine the other day, now to be honest I didn't check the fronts to compare, but the rears were quite warm. There is nothing wrong with my brakes, so I wouldn't associate the two issues.

What is likely is that the handbrake shoes rub slightly, which creates the friction warming the hubs. As the systems are totaly seperate one shouldn't affect the other.

Phil, do you know anybody else with a Spider or a Coupe, who might let you have a quick drive so you can satisfy yourself you aren't chasing shadows. (I'm not suggesting you are, but at least then you have something to compare), get in touch with your local owners club section and go to a meeting.

[quote=VeloceMitch;1240853

Phil, do you know anybody else with a Spider or a Coupe, who might let you have a quick drive so you can satisfy yourself you aren't chasing shadows. (I'm not suggesting you are, but at least then you have something to compare), get in touch with your local owners club section and go to a meeting. [/QUOTE]

Funny you should say that - the son of the mechanic who has been doing the work on my car up to now has got an identical car (albeit nearly 2 years older). I sat in his and the car felt light years away compared to mine - the pedal feeling exactly how I thought it should. Apparently his son was having lots of problems with his brakes too - replaced both servos with Lockheed ones, and that solved their problems. I get a funny feeling that it might solve mine too! I hope....

Originally Posted by jpa

Sorry to hear you still have a problem, phil. Hope they can solve it.

I was wondering if the rear brake regulator has ever been known to cause this type of problem. Mine looks like it is the oldest part of the system so it could be the culprit. Has anyone had any experiences of this part going wrong?

Paul.

I don't think changing the regulator made a blind bit of difference to the car. Also, you can't get the exact one any more from Ate, it's slightly different - although it is now very shiny lol!

Philmiles 83, not to hijack your thread, but I have been reading this thread with some interest, as I am contemplating brake surgery on my newly acquired 77 Spider. Looking through the history file that came with the car, it had long periods of inactivity, and hence, often showed up at the shop with 'sticking brakes'. My impressions when driving the car are that it takes a HELLUVA shove to get the brakes to act - and that's with dual servo assist, which does not seem right. It does stop OK once you have applied enough pressure, but it seems excessive to me - I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' type question, but do the brakes generally require light pressure on these cars, or a decent shove ?
In the event of mine being abnormal, any suggestions on the best place to start to troubleshoot ? Rebuild calipers and replace all rubber hoses ? I believe M/Cyl is near new...as are servo's.
Cheers

I had the same problem on my Bertie. I tried adjusting the pedal to give less travel and cooked the rear brakes. I put it back to where I started and brakes were fine if you gave them a good shove, but it still had a 'long' peddle. Further investigation revealed that the rear bearings were worn and the end float was pushing the pads back in the rear calipers, it was pretty obvious as the rear wheels had much more brake dust on them than the fronts.
Its now fine, could yours be the same?

This dual circuit/twin servo set up is definitely showing to be a nightmare!! I have to say that the pedal on my Spider isn't hard to press at all - in fact it is sometimes excessively easy to press, other times a bit harder (hence the fact it's still not fixed!). The biting point of the pedal also changes, sometimes at the complete end of pedal travel, other times near the top! I would probably guess that if your pedal is excessively hard that your servos have had it, although you say they are quite new..... !! I don't know if you observe the same as me - untouchably hot rear wheels and cool front ones...?

Anyway, mine's booked in at the experts at BLS Automotive who say that they have had the problems many times before, and normally turns out to be the unusual twin servo setup. It's going in on 10th September, so fingers crossed.

Hmmm...haven't seen the temp difference you mentioned (yet)...one of the servoes was replaced in '03 per the records. Pedal on mine is v. stiff, really takes a shove, and has hardly any travel...(has caused a few scary moments at traffic islands, I can asure you !) I believe I will do a thorough overhaul this fall, incl rebuilding calipers and replacing rubber lines. I hope you let us know how things go at the garage, and what the eventual culprit turned out to be. Cheers

Originally Posted by garwood1

I hope you let us know how things go at the garage, and what the eventual culprit turned out to be. Cheers

Certainly will - it's going in next Friday for as long as it takes I guess!! Also going to get them to replace my rear diff pinion seal as they have the rather elusive tool that allows them to remove the special flange nut...then the car should be perfect and ready for a trip to France

I remember having quite some difficulty bleeding systems with remote servos in the past - and that was where there was only one of them! I must admit on reading your first description of the symptoms I thought there might be a problem with the replacement master cylinder. Could it be that it's spent a long, long time languishing on shelves?

Well I think it also sounds like an M/C problem. I know that a few people have had problems with the repro dual circuit M/Cs that are going around. Some people I know have replaced the seals on brand new ones before even fitting them! I guess this shows the quality of some reproduction products I've heard some that have replaced the system with a single circuit one made by a larger company, bypassing one servo. But I would like to keep it as original as I can.

I know that if it turns out to be the M/C that the person I bought it from will replace it with another, either that or we'll replace the seals on the new one...but it still could be the servos. Only three days till I take it to BLS for fault finding and repair, so I'll report back as it definitely seems that lots of people are having brake issues which are hard to fault find.

I think I may have been over-reacting with regard to my rear brakes being warmer than the fronts.

I went for a blast yesterday (making the most of the decent weather we are having at last!) and my rear brakes were only mildly warm after parking up. I think VeloceMitch might be right in that it may be the hubs that get slightly warm as the norm.

The brakes were working strongly so it would appear I do not have a problem.

I believe I have read