S4 Spider

Hi there,

I am seriously considering selling my 156, which is about to take a massive hit of depreciation on release on the 159, and buying an old Alfa Spider, S4 or S3 (1980s?).

Please can anyone advise what I should look out for and where? How long they last, and what the hell they're like to drive in the winter in gales/torrential rain etc? Am I likely to miss the refinement/comfort of the 156?

Any advice gladly appreciated,
Chris

from aroc-uk - http://www.************/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1506

The Buying guide has been on the AROC forum for a while, yet the only current entry is for the New Spider which Pete Barber did.

its a bit of a thankless tasking pulling all the info required for a buying guide together, but could surely be made a lot easier by regular forum members submitting their two-penith worth.

So lets give it a crack (& maybe it will bleed to the other model lounges).

Pete made the following headings, so submit anything worth putting forward to a potential "105 series spider buyers guide"........please use the headings, it'll make the colating a lot easier.

Model History
Bodywork
Chassis
Spider Hood
Engine
Exhausts
Suspension
Other Main points
Driving impressions]

Spider Hood

New Hoods cost around £3-500 depending on the quality of the hood, & some are easier for a DIY fitment than others.

Always check the condition of the framework - the hood is easy & in-expensive to replace in the whole scheme of things.

If the Canvas Soft top has no tears but is showing signs of age (whitening - especially around the fold lines) - this can be cured with bi-annual applications of Renovo & a good hood cleaner & waterproofer. Renovo also do a plastic window polish that will clean & reduce the blured effect from scratching.

The plastic window - if torn, cannot be replaced seperatly.

Some cars come with a factory option of a hardtop roof - this makes the car a much more practical option for year round motoring. It tightens the car up (reducing scuttle shake), lightens up the interior & provides safer "hood-up" veiwing (especially if you have a LHD version at roundabouts). there are a number of different hardtops available for the S3, some factory, some German - some even with a built in TargaTop. The S4 had a single Factory version available. If buying a car with a hard top, expect to pay £3-400 more..........but well worth it. Occasionally these are available on Ebay.

Bodywork

This, I believe, is the most important part of buying any Spider (105 car or older Alfa, for that matter). What I put applies as much to Coupes as to Spiders.

The good news is that they all rot in the same places so looking is easy. Starting from the front of the car:

Nose - the nose on the Spider is very vulnerable to accidents - check for repairs
Bonnet - check the front edge for bubbling.
Front valance - these rot on all Spiders & Coupes especially at the outer edges where they join the front wings (note - the valance for older Coupes is not available)
Cross-member - below the radiator is a box-section cross-member which links the front of the two chassis rails. This is prone to rotting, as are the two anti-roll bar mounting points at either end (that are actual the front of the chassis rails)
Front wings - the bottoms (F&R) are likely to have rotted on anything but the best cars. Repair panels are available - check the quality of any repair. The wheel arch itself is normal fine. Check for the presence of the front & rear splash shields. If these are missing, there is likely to be extensive rot behind the lights and in the rear edges of the wings as well as the front of the sills.
Inner wings - check for rot around the top arm mounting point (a recessed box in the inner wing). This is very fiddly to repair.
Sills - these are critical to the strength of the Spider so ensuring they are in good order is vital to your investment decision - check them thouroghly. There are three sills each side: outer, middle and inner. The outer is mostly cosmetic but will indicate the condition of the other two. The middle and inner are heavy gauge steel. If the bottom of the front wing is rotten, it is likely that the front of the sills are too. Remove the rear splash panel if at all possible. One look in this area will tell you a great deal about the rest of the car. Check under the car looking outwards at the sill joints at the bottom edge. Check also the condition of the jacking points front & rear which are supported mostly by the sills. Everything should look neat & tidy. Sills are available but budget on £80-£100 per panel plus complex fitting (they tuck under the front & rear wings). Try opening and closing the doors with the hood up and then the hood down to see if there is any body flex.
Floor - lift the carpets (this is a must) and inspect the floor. Spiders are prone to some leakage so the floors get wet and rot inside out. Look especially carefully at the front and rear of the floor in each corner. Again, floor panels are available but are fiddley to fit and aren't cheap. On the Coupe, look under the rear seat back. Just inside the inner wheel arches there are a couple of places that are prone to rusting through from the chassis rails.
Doors - like most doors, Spiders doors rot, especially at the bottom.
Rear Wings - Thoroghly check the panel from the lower front edge, along the bottom, over the arch and along the rear botton edge. Again, it is highly likely that this has been repaired at some point as the hood recess drains into the wings - the question is how well? Check the wing just above the arch for bubbling or poor repair.
Inner Rear Arches - Front and rear these are likely to rot. Also check the condition of the rebound strap hanging point.
Boot lid - the rear edges rot so check these closely. Also, Kamm-tail Spider bootlids are prone to warping. Boat-tail Spider bootlids are unbelieveably expensive (if you can source one) so make sure yours is in great shape.
Boot Floor - the spare wheel well is a well known rot spot. Replacements are now quite cheap (£50-£60). Check the fuel tanks and its aperture and the trailing edge of the floor where it joins the rear panel (the section which holds the boot lock is a good indicator of the condition of the panels).
Rear Panels - these can rot at the bottom edges and joints.

The good news is that nearly all the rot is below the waistline of the car and that pretty much everthing important can be readily accessed.

Although you have to check everything carefully, the post Gausie placed is about the 105/115 spider range. Rust is a major problem on the first three spiders (until S3 also called aerodynamica). The last series, series 4 (1990 - 1994) have a reasonably good rust protection. But that doesn't mean those cars don't rust. Series 4 is more then 10 years old now, so it is normal that you can find rust.

Good thing is that there are enough series 4 out there that don't have severe rust problems. The ride is of a classic Alfa Romeo, even the series 4 spider. The only modern aspects are power steering, power windows and sadly enough fuel injection (works perfect but I prefer carbs)

When you check the spider on all the aspects mentioned by Gausie, remember to check the tyres not only on thread but on age as well. Tyres older then 6 years can still look good, the rubber became a lot stiffer due to the aging proces and makes the car hazardous.

I still miss my spider

Thank you both for the comprehensive advice - I was looking at an S4 which looks in pretty good shape rust wise. Before purchase I would probably get an AA inspection as well (if they can do it)

If an Alfa garage waxoyled the car underneath and sealed the body annually, would that help stave off the rust if the car is good to begin with? I would really like to buy one and the only major problem seems to be the rust, which might prove too expensive for me to deal with in the long run....

If the roof leaks a bit, can it be fixed maybe with new seals or something? And security wise, as I have to park in the road is a mohair hood likely to attract thieves or vandals, or could I easily stick in an aftermarket alarm/deterrent (e.g. Clifford)?

Does the injection engine make a good noise?

Finally, do you think it a sensible idea selling the 156 and getting one? I keep returning to the Spider and figure I will definitely own one eventually so why not now! (Don't want an S4 for an investment, they look good and I've never driven a rear wheel drive or convertible) My 156 is worth about 7.5k now, probably about 3k in a couple of years at best...

Sorry for all the questions!

Thanks again
Chris

Chris,

I've never driven an S4 and I don't know your local market, but here are a few general comments.

If I had read Gausie's rust list I would have panicked and never purchased my car. I certainly didn't have a fraction of the rust problems he mentioned. Essentially I put in new rocker panels, and that's about it for major rust repair. The car had no more or no less rust than any other 30-year-old car that needed a restoration job. As to whether or not the same can be said for newer cars (or any specific car) that's a crap shoot and it will depend more on how the car was cared for rather than on what the cars are generally like.

I know most people on this board are in favour of "rust proofing" measures -- i.e spraying gunk under the car and "sealing" it. I'm not a fan, and I've never found that it helps protect the car. It does however annoy the people who have to work under the mess. Whether you decide to do it depends on your own personal preferences.

The consensus amongst most convertible owners is to leave it parked with the top down as often as possible, the theory being if somebody wants to vandalize it, it is better that they don't slash to roof to get at your Spice Girls CDs. Now this isn't always practical, especially if you are away from the car for long periods of time, or if you have to worry about the weather. If I were going to purchase a spider as my sole daily driver, I'd find one with a hard top, especially for the winter.

Driving convertibles isn't always fun. The sun will leak behind your sunglasses, blinding you. Sun visors of are little assistance. The best solution is a ballcap to cut the glare, so kiss your hair-do good-bye. Plus ballcaps usually leave your ears (and the back of your neck and your nose) free to suffer suburn. (You will learn to keep a bottle of sunscreen in the glovebox, and if the glovebox is of similar size to an S2, that's about all it will fit. Flashlights are usually too long. Don't even try book-bound roadmaps.

You spend a lot of time being either too hot (usually hot and sticky thanks to the humidity) or too cold (actually it usually isn't the temperature but the wind that gets to you). Don't count on being able to listen to your radio or carry on a conversation at highway speeds. Sometimes you can, but most times it isn't worth it.

Oh, if you need to wear a suit to work, there really is no place to hang your jacket if you don't want to wear it and crease it while behind the wheel. And no matter what you wear, or what mood you're in, when the top is down be prepared for people to talk to you. They will shout from the sidewalks or pull up besides you in their cars, roll down the windows and ask you questions. You are much more exposed in a convertible, so if you are prone to fist waving, finger flipping, or shouting at idiots while driving, you will soon find yourself out on display and you will likely become conscious of your actions. You do not feel as safe and secure as you do in your sedan. You are not isolated from the world, you are part of it -- usually in the centre of the three-ring circus.

As you know the car is rear wheel drive. I can't tell you how hard it is to handle them in bad weather because I've been swapping between FWD and RWD as long as I've been driving, so it's second nature to me. I do feel that it is worth warning you that if you have no experience handling a RWD car in slippery (read real winter) conditions, you will likely "lose it" at least a few times until you get the hang of it. How often will depend on how quickly you pick up on the differences. Some people pick it up almost right away, some never get it.

The thing to check on a spider that is going to be driven in the rain and the snow is the climate control system. Test the defrost system and make sure that you can clear mist and condensation (let alone ice) off the windshield and off the back window and make sure you can keep it off. My car, which doesn't have air conditioning, is almost undrivable on days when there is high humidity and rain. Small cabin + high humidity + closed windows + roof up + passenger [two people is much worse than one] = no visibility thanks to condensation on the windows so thick that you can't cut it with a chainsaw. A more modern spider shouldn't have that problem, but it is one of the first systems I would test before buying a car. If the car is going to be a winter car, make sure the heater can cope with the demands you are going to make on it, especially if you don't plan on running it with a hardtop.

I know that people say that convertibles -- even high mileage ones -- hold their value considerably better than other cars. I don't disagree, but I still say that putting tons of miles on any car will cause it to drop in value (let alone cause it to wear quicker). You really do need to sit down and figure out how many miles you're going to drive and look at cars with an equal amount of miles. Compare the price of (for example) a '92 spider with 70,000 miles with a '92 spider with 150,000 miles. When you go to sell the car in five/eight/twelve years time, the car will be even more of a collector car (assuming it is in decent shape) and a collector would prefer lower mileage, all other things being equal.

Do keep in mind however, that you are buying an older car, which means that the odds of it breaking down and leaving you stranded are much, much higher. Even well cared for cars suffer wear and tear on consumable parts, and when they break down, you may not be able to get replacements right away (although I'm sure I'm in a much worse situation than you are due to both the age of my car and the complete lack of an official Alfa presence in Canada). Plus there is that general "Alfa reliability" factor. If you've got a good car you're fine. If you get a "Friday before Christmas break car" you're not, but you drive an Alfa already, so you should be aware of that. Ditto finding a mechanic who you can trust to keep your baby running.

Now despite all of those dire warnings, I don't see anything inherently wrong about buying a spider for your daily car. You just have to know exactly what you are getting yourself into, and you have to understand your local climate. If you're going to spend a lot of time driving on unplowed, snowy roads, the spider is probably a bit on the low side. You don't want the car to sink in the snow past the rockers or past the bumper.

Because spiders should generally be cheaper in the winter, I'd recommend you wait a bit. Go out shopping in January or February. Test the car under the worst conditions you can. If you like it at its worst, you'll probably love it at its best.
--Toronto

[Late edit: I forgot to mention the visibility issue. There isn't any through the rear window. Well there is some, but it is very disconcerting if you suddenly have stop to put the top up and then get back to motoring. You quickly realize just how little you can see when you look back. If you see spider drivers braving the open air, when the weather is less than ideal, it isn't that they are macho or masochists. It's that they want to see what is coming up behind them on the outside lane. ]

All I can say is Ditto to all the above. It took me about a year to find gthe "right" car.
and even then I had to contend with some issues on an otherwise well cared for car.

It has been mentioned before, but look out for:
1. Front end damage/repairs - The nose is quite low and you cannot see the front bumbers. It takes a while to get used to parking a spider, until you know the extremities of the car. Similar the back end.
2. Rust - Mine has a rusty spare wheel well, but is rust free otherwise.
3. Soft top - Mine is brand new, but this is quite a costly affair. Make sure the top is in good condition, with no tears etc.
4. Interior - In South Africa the sun WILL damage seats, dashboards etc. In Europe this will not be too big an issue, but still worth checking that the vynil seats are still "flexable", with no tears.

I drive my spider as much as I can, but admittedly it is not a great daily driver. With the top down your hair will get messed up - not a great look for that early morning meeting. With the top up on a warm day, the "sweaty look" will be apparent.

You are looking at an S4, so aircon is available. You will have less of a problem than me and Tor, as we have S2 cars with the bare essentials. (my wipers are about as effective as George Bush's speech writer)

All that said, spiders are great cars and a good investment, as long as you take care of them (in that sense, they are like second wives )

I know you will enjoy your car, if you decide to get it.

Chris - no question you'll enjoy it!!

But, as to whether it makes sense in the winter, that's very much a question that you and you alone will have to answer.

The S4 is more refined than the older cars - but there's no way I'd drive my duetto in the winter on any but the crispiest of sunny days. There'd be no fun in it for me, so I'd take a tintop.

I've heard people compare the spider's heater to 'a little old lady blowing demurely on your knees' (Don't think it was Wayne Rooney - but who knows?). It's that same heater that has to handle the screen mist on a rainy day, and, heaven forbid, the snowflakes in a blizzard. And, believe me, it doesnt. So wrap up warm and bring a chamois.

So, why bother with a spider? Cos it's just about the prettiest car ever made, and the feeling you get as you get in and start her up is only exceeded by the thrill of shifting through the gears on an open country road with the top down and the sun streaming in.

An excellent second car. But I'm not sure it would ever be my first car.

G

ps - just for clarity, my earlier post is a cut and paste from the Alfa Romeo Owners Club web site, in the Giulia/105 series forum. The posts are not my own - they are from the far more knowledgeable people who frequent that site - notably Jamieandthemagictorch and meanredspider. The posts have been copied here with the kind (albeit retrospective) permission of the owners club.

Originally Posted by Gausie

ps - just for clarity, my earlier post is a cut and paste from the Alfa Romeo Owners Club web site

The posts have been copied here with the kind (albeit retrospective) permission of the owners club.

Very generous. Salt of the earth, those AROC guys.

Plastic Pig - although some may consider copying (and crediting) a section of a thread from one BB to another to be 'ungentlemanly', it is permitted under copyright law as 'fair use', particularly when it is used in a non commercial manner.

Similar to finger wagging in a way

@Eric,
I loved the line about the wipers. Mine are equally effective.

@Gausie,
Actually the heater on my car works remarkably well. It will toast and bake you in under a minute. Now I've never tried it in -30 Celsius, but I'd bet it would do fine under those conditions. I'm just not sure how well the car would be able to retain the heat, as the insulating factor of a soft top is less than zero.

What doesn't work as well as the "cool" option. When I just try to pick up outside air to vent it through the car, it always seems to come in a few degrees warmer than I would like (and a few degrees warmer than the 30 Celsius air on the outside of the car). So when it is already hot and humid and the inside windows are misting up, and I'm looking to add to cool air to the mixture, it is less effective than I would like.

Even though I seem to be coming down on the pro-side of the Luddite debate in the poll lounge I really am in favour of getting air conditioning in a convertible, even though that seems, on paper, to be a superfluous option. As has been pointed out, an S4 comes with that option, and I'd make sure I bought one with it.
--Toronto

Originally Posted by Eric Metz

You are looking at an S4, so aircon is available.

The US versions had aircon but they had a three speed auto as well . Aircon on an European specced S4 is quite rare.

I used the spider in winter as well and never felt the need for a hard top.

Demisting the front screen was hard during the first miles, because the ventilation sucks.

Well get back to us when you live in a country with a real winter.

As I said, Chris really needs to honestly evaluate his local climate. Personally I wouldn't want to subject any soft-top to supporting the weight of two feet of wet, heavy packing snow on a regular basis. Or even four inches of dry, fluffy snow.

Around here the most common convertible you see in the winter is a Miata/MX-5. A lot of people tend to use them as daily drivers winter and summer, but most of them -- I'd estimate about 85 per cent, if not higher -- are fitted with hard tops for winter motoring.

Again, it all comes down to personal choice, and I know which choice I'd make.
--Toronto

Thanks for all your inputs, I am pretty sure now I will buy a Spider with hardtop

I'll let you know when I get it (if I don't chicken out at the last minute!) and post a photo

Chris