Another newbie with a few issues

[pgman]

Hi. I just bought this S3 Spider (1985) that has been sitting idle for a long time - only about 1000 miles in the last ten years. It started and ran fine, but the previous owner warned me that the second-gear syncrhos were worn and that you have to sometimes double-clutch it or it will be a scratchy shift into second. Well, I drove the car about 60 miles to the auto train station and it seemed okay at first. However, as I neared the train station I encountered many intersections and heavier traffic. At that point I realized that the clutch was not working at ALL anymore. The pedal was just going to the mat and the car kept on moving. If I applied the brakes, it would stall the engine - it was that bad.

I DID manage to make it to the train station and I now have the car at my home. At this point, I've raised the car and had a friend step on the clutch pedal. The slave cylinder is moving, but it doesn't seem to be moving enough. The fluid level is topped up (it was low but not out). The odd thing about this is that the clutch pedal is only about half as high as the brake pedal, and I cannot understand why this would be. I don't remember it being this way when I drove away from the previous owner's house. I seem to remember reading somewhere online that this low-pedal symptom is indicative of a master cylinder issue, but I am not certain if that is what I actually read or if I'm just confused.

Can anybody shed some light on this? I did some searching around here and found some similar threads, but nothing that mentions the low pedal height. I have a few other things I need to sort out before I can begin driving the car, so I have time to sort this out. I would just like to know what parts (if any) I may need to order. I haven't attempted to bleed the clutch lines yet, but that may be difficult anyway because there is some corrosion around the slave cylinder (which is odd because there is almost zero corrosion anywhere else on the car). There does not appear to be any fluid leaking from any of the connections or cylinders involved - just insufficient travel at the release arm. The clutch is definitely strong - there is not slipping, even when the clutch DID work (for a short time). I had a similar problem once with an American car (a little Mustang), but that was a cable type clutch and, in that case, the issue was caused by a physical failure of the clutch pedal support brace under the dash.

Thanks in advance.

[spiderserie4]

Originally Posted by pgman

The odd thing about this is that the clutch pedal is only about half as high as the brake pedal, and I cannot understand why this would be.

This symptom is nearly always a clutch pivot arm that is about to shear off......
Under the bonnet there is a short arm coming out of the aluminium casting behind the brake servo unit, that when the clutch pedal is pushed, activates the clutch master cylinder. It is a common weakpoint as the bearing shaft slowly seizes up and the weld joint first twists, then shears off.

See this BB post with some useful pics (however the excellent step-by-step instructions by "Gadwhite" are somehow no longer online anymore......if you start a thread on the alfaBB, someone might have saved it in pdf format or something..........it is a REAL help if you can find it, as it describes how you can do it without undoing the hydraulic lines)
Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums - View Single Post - Clutch Master Cyl. Problems

[pgman]

Thanks for the information. I just have to ask one more follow-up question. Is this piece (the shaft assembly) re-usuable - in other words, can I have it re-welded and then re-use? If not, any idea where I might find a replacement, and what of this bearing that is siezed? Is that something that needs to be replace also or can it just be freed up and re-used? I guess that's two questions.

Thanks again - I really appreciate it.

[spiderserie4]

you have 2 choices, really one correct one not so!:
1. take out the pivot arm and reweld it........not recommended as it has to be rewelded also at the back, meaning metal has to be carved out, weld put in, and then the weld perfectly shaved down to fit back in (.....too time consuming to get correct........if you don't it will break again!)
2. new pivot arm from Highwood alfa (their part number 10519), which is a strengthened pivot arm, superior to the original....costs 66 quid, but then the job is done.

EDIT: sorry, forgot you were in the States!
IAP have the pivot:
http://www.international-auto.com/in...4&posid=880891
and Centerline do an upgraded version:
https://www.centerlinealfa.com/clutch/696


as for the "bearing", sorry I was unclear: I just meant where the pivot arm "slides" into the casing....use lots of grease.

when it is done you need to check the play in the control rod (photo)

and below is an article on replacing the shaft with a few tips...........get out the band-aids!

[pgman]

Thank you VERY much. This is excellent information. Now I have an idea what I must do. I suppose I better get a tetanus shot now!

[pgman]

Okay. I've ordered the "new and improved" lever and a couple other items I need (shift boots and fuel filter). I pulled the pedal assembly through the firewall far enough to get at the nut on the clutch pedal. It is here where I get stumped. How am I to get this bolt OUT of the pedal? It seems to be on a bind, which may well be just another symptom, but it sure isn't going to move - or at least I don't know how to move it. If I try to tap it out, I KNOW I'm going to just bend it and / or destroy the threads (even with the nut on the end). In fact, I'm not so sure I know this bolt isn't already sheared off...or is that what we're talking about when we say "sheared off"? The weld at the end of the shaft (where the lever is attached) seems solid but, just for grins, before I took everything loose I pulled up on the clutch pedal and it DID move quite readily. So, I know something is slipping and I'm guessing it has to be at the point where that bolt goes through the clutch pedal. I guess this bolt is supposed to fix the pedal to the shaft. I think either it or the shaft is too soft (maybe both). Anyway, I ran out of time for today but I got a good start on this. I am thinking that, if I unbolt both master cylinders, I can remove the entire pedal assembly and take it to my work bench were I can really work on it. I just don't know if the pedals will come out through the opening in the firewall. I'm guessing this is how they assembled the cars at the factory and that the firewall has a large-enough hole to allow everything to come out. If not, I'll have to figure another way.

Thank you again for the input and the links. This has been most helpful. I only hope I can learn enough to one day help someone else.

[spiderserie4]

that great thread on the BB re: the pivot arm is back up.... lots more tips there......you should be able to do it without removing the m/c lines.......have a careful read through:
Broken Clutch Pivot - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

Maybe your pivot shaft has sheared just where the tapered bolt (cotter pin) goes through? That bolt (tapered pin) can be a pita to remove............soak with PB blaster over night, you could try some heat............if you destroy the bolt, or it is broken you can get them new from the same centerline link I posted above (scroll down it is on the bottom left of that page)

Good luck, hope it works out.

[pgman]

Another clarification. It's the taper pin that I cannot get to budge. I think it is on a bind and I'm not sure the best way to get it to back out. I am thinking I may need to pull the whole pedal assembly and put it on the bench. Not a huge issue, I don't think. Time will tell.

[pgman]

Well, I got the new and improved clutch pivot arm today and got it installed. The only thing left is to get that crazy taper bolt back in - what a bugger. I ran out of time and only managed to drop it on the floor a dozen times. I tried the wire trick but I didn't have the right wire, I don't think. I'll get at it again tomorrow when I've more rest. I ordered a workshop manual from IAP when I ordered all the other parts. That is one comprehensive book, I say! I don't know if I'll ever use HALF the information in there but it's good to know I can look up the torque settings on the radio knobs if I need to know.

Thank you everyone for your help. I am hopeful that this car will not need a whole lot of work beyond what I'm doing now but it is old and I realize, of course, that it is going to break now and then. My only big concern, beyond the clutch, is the fuel system. I have a suspicion that it is going to give me fits for a while, until I slowly and methodically clear out all the goo and bad gasoline that's been sitting in it for so long. Also, my fuel level gauge does not work. The previous owner told me it was intermittent but I haven't seen it budge from the pin yet (on the empty side) so I am thinking I either have a bad ground at the tank or the sender is loaded up with crud. That will probably be my next challenge...if I can ever get this clutch back together.

[pgman]

I spent all day yesterday working on my new "project". I remember the last time I did something like this - except it was a 1977 Honda Accord I bought for $100US in ths spring of 1990. It had a siezed motor and rust everywhere, but it was cheap and I had a source for a good engine. I spent all summer fixing that thing and even had it re-painted before going back to college. All that work, and then I hit a deer an quite nearly demolished the whole front clip. I am certainly hoping the Alfa experience works out a bit better!

So, the clutch is fixed and, honestly, I didn't really find it to be that terribly difficult. I think the hardest part was just getting the little tapered pin facing the right way before pushing it up. I dropped it at least sixty-three times in the process but eventually it popped in and I was all set. I took a quick test drive after doing the clutch pivot repair and discovered that the engine was running very poorly. It would start and idle but had not power to pull away at anything faster than a walking pace. I knew this to be a classic symptom of fuel starvation (among other possibilities) and so I changed the fuel filter. That made all the difference in the world. I noticed that the "fuel" which drained from the old filter more resembled mud than gasoline. I don't know if I've ever seen one that bad. So, my thoughts immeditaely turned to how the fuel tank must look inside. I am going to wait a bit just to see what happens, because the car runs pretty darn great after the fuel filter change.

I have a few more things that I know are wrong, but I'm going to have to prioritize them because of limited funds. These are (in no particular order):

Two spots of rust in the spare tire well which have perforated the floor. These perforations are each about 2 inches long by approximately 1/8 inch wide. I thoroughly soaked then with a rust-stop chemical and I think I can probably just get away with a layer of fiberglas to seal it all back up and reinforce the metal. I've spent a considerable amount of time on my back under this car at this point. This is the ONLY place I've found any significant corrosion, other than the normal light surface rust on the control arms and other such pieces. I am guessing this isolated rust is due to water laying in the spare tire well for extended periods - it clearly rusted from the inside out because the undercoating is completely intact on the under-side.

My car seems to have the dreaded vibration issue when pulling away from a dead stop in first gear. I know I read somewhere that this is caused by something amiss in the propellor shaft but I can't find that thread again to confirm. This only happens at low speed when accelerating or decelerating in the lower gears (1 an 2) - the car is smooth as can be once underway. If anyone knows of the top of their head what causes this, please feel free to remind me. I seem to remember it was a known failure mode of one of the prop shaft components.

My oil pressure readings have not improved much since changing the oil. I suspect that this engine might just be tired and may be nearing a major overhaul interval. There is no smoke of any kind from the tail pipe but I'm wondering if there is just excessive clearance in the main or rod bearings. The top end of the motor seems fine - there is very little valvetrain noise and nothing scary coming from the lower half, either. However, when I started the motor after the oil change, it took several seconds for the oil pressure to come up the first time. I know this is somewhat normal but nobody likes to hear the sounds an engine makes during that initial "dry start". I noticed some metal on the oil drain plug when I removed it. This could have been there a long time, so I didn't get too worried about it. However, I will have to keep a close eye on this since i cleaned it all off this time. I just have a sneaking suspicion that I may be putting an engine in this car at some point.

I took my speedometer apart and discovered that the needle was only loosely pressed onto the shaft. I re-attached it more firmly and now it actually sits on the pin when the car isn't moving (which it never did previously). I don't know if this actually fixed anything (I wasn't able to drive the car after this attempt) but it was a place to start.

I changed the top heater hose because it was very soft and mushy. I had visions of a nice drive on a windy road somewhere and then having my foot scalded by hot coolant. The bottom heater hose seemed to be newer and it was in good condition. I'm normally very open to new and different designs when it comes to all things mechanical but come on, guys...really? Who thought it was a good idea to extend a rubber coolant hose into the passenger compartment? That said, the cooling system seems to be in good shape. The coolant is nice and clean, the pump is providing very good flow, and the thermostat seems to be regulating the temperature at just a tick above 180 degrees. Where I live (Florida), any kind of cooling system issue will almost always turn up rather quickly. At some point in the past (before I got the car) somebody removed the radiator fan shroud. I am wondering if this is because the motor mounts are going bad. The fan itself seems to be in good shape - no signs of grinding on the blade edges or anything like that - but I am considering an electric fan just because I've read stories about the engine-driven fan exploding and doing major damage. At the very least, I think I should probably get a shroud to put back in there (although I don't know if it is absolutely necessary).

I would like to investigate the air conditioning at some point. The previous owner said it didn't work, but he never had it diagnosed. I noticed that, when I turn on the A/C switch, the compressor clutch engages, but the condenser fan does not start (it is electric). Also, the drive belt has been removed from the compressor and I'm not sure why, because the compressor pully spins freely when the switch is off. I would think that, if the compressor was locked up, the belt could have stayed on - just don't turn the A/C switch on and everything will be fine. Maybe not. Anyway, I am wondering if this could just be a simple issue like a fan relay. In any event, if they system has been compromised in some way, I wonder how expensive it will be to retro-fit the bits to make it compatible with the newer refrigerants...hmmm....maybe I just need to drive with the top down more.

Well, I think that's it for now...and that's plenty! I still need that A/C vent, Serie4 - I'm sorry I haven't contacted you, but I don't have a lot of extra funding right now and I can't PM you because I'm not a paid subscriber. I'll get this sorted out soon - so please keep one of those vents for me.

[anglospider]

Hi pgman, some thoughts below on the bits I can comment on:

Two spots of rust in the spare tire well which have perforated the floor. These perforations are each about 2 inches long by approximately 1/8 inch wide. I thoroughly soaked then with a rust-stop chemical and I think I can probably just get away with a layer of fiberglas to seal it all back up and reinforce the metal. I've spent a considerable amount of time on my back under this car at this point. This is the ONLY place I've found any significant corrosion, other than the normal light surface rust on the control arms and other such pieces. I am guessing this isolated rust is due to water laying in the spare tire well for extended periods - it clearly rusted from the inside out because the undercoating is completely intact on the under-side.

You are right about it rusting from inside. Water can come via a poor boot (trunk) lid seal. These can be easily replaced. If you have the wing (fender) mounted aerial that can also allow water in.

My car seems to have the dreaded vibration issue when pulling away from a dead stop in first gear. I know I read somewhere that this is caused by something amiss in the propellor shaft but I can't find that thread again to confirm. This only happens at low speed when accelerating or decelerating in the lower gears (1 an 2) - the car is smooth as can be once underway. If anyone knows of the top of their head what causes this, please feel free to remind me. I seem to remember it was a known failure mode of one of the prop shaft components.

I'm no expert but mine had this problem due to a rough universal joint on the prop. I had mine replaced and it cured it. I have seen other posts by guys who say that doing it yourself is easy so you might like to have a go.

My oil pressure readings have not improved much since changing the oil. I suspect that this engine might just be tired and may be nearing a major overhaul interval. There is no smoke of any kind from the tail pipe but I'm wondering if there is just excessive clearance in the main or rod bearings. The top end of the motor seems fine - there is very little valvetrain noise and nothing scary coming from the lower half, either. However, when I started the motor after the oil change, it took several seconds for the oil pressure to come up the first time. I know this is somewhat normal but nobody likes to hear the sounds an engine makes during that initial "dry start". I noticed some metal on the oil drain plug when I removed it. This could have been there a long time, so I didn't get too worried about it. However, I will have to keep a close eye on this since i cleaned it all off this time. I just have a sneaking suspicion that I may be putting an engine in this car at some point.

As many others have stated on this board, the gauges are notoriously unreliable so I would get someone with a screw in gauge to check the pressure before you start worrying too much.

I would like to investigate the air conditioning at some point. The previous owner said it didn't work, but he never had it diagnosed. I noticed that, when I turn on the A/C switch, the compressor clutch engages, but the condenser fan does not start (it is electric). Also, the drive belt has been removed from the compressor and I'm not sure why, because the compressor pully spins freely when the switch is off. I would think that, if the compressor was locked up, the belt could have stayed on - just don't turn the A/C switch on and everything will be fine. Maybe not. Anyway, I am wondering if this could just be a simple issue like a fan relay. In any event, if they system has been compromised in some way, I wonder how expensive it will be to retro-fit the bits to make it compatible with the newer refrigerants...hmmm....maybe I just need to drive with the top down more.

If the clutch engages that is a good sign, if the system is the same as my S4 Spider. On the S4 if the gas coolant pressure is low the clutch will not engage, as a fail-safe. So it seems you have coolant (unless a PO has by-passed the trinary switch that controls this function).
I had mine converted to newer coolant. It wasn't cheap, partly because I had to get a new condenser from the US. At least you have access to cheaper parts, without the high carriage charges.

Well, I think that's it for now...and that's plenty! I still need that A/C vent, Serie4 - I'm sorry I haven't contacted you, but I don't have a lot of extra funding right now and I can't PM you because I'm not a paid subscriber. I'll get this sorted out soon - so please keep one of those vents for me.

Send me your address to: gievres at hotmail.co.uk (using the @ symbol instead of "at") for the vent.