Value of 1750 GTV - No rust - in SA

[jimmcg]

Hi. I am new to the forum and are in the process of looking for a good Guilia GT 1600 Junior or 1750 GTV. I am currently in South Africa for this week and have viewed a couple cars, a junior and a 1750 GTV.

I am really interested in trying to ascertain the approximate value of a rust free Mk2 1970 1750. The car has been resprayed but as far as I can tell has no rust and has never been restored. So no new metal or panels on the body. The car runs but needs attention. The brakes need work as they slowly start to seize up over a 5 mile run. The engine sounds poor, quite a lot of clatter and knocks so I assume a rebuild is in order. The interior is pretty good but non standard console (stiched vinyl and padded). No dents at all on the body and britework in very excellent condition. It is the condition of the body that attracted my attention. Feeling all around the lower section of the entire body there is no evidence of rust. Wheel well is fine, only a little surface rust discolouration. Gearbox seems ok with normal stickiness in second. windows all good. headlining original, discoloured but no holes/tears.

Car has MoMo alloys and monogramed steering wheel in good condition.

If a car is in this condition and is imported to the UK, the big question is how desirable is it and what sort of value could it have? Any comments would be most welcome.

I know this is a vague question but I have no feeling for the value of a 1750 which is rust free and could be considered as a light restoration.

Cheers
Jim

[VeloceMitch]

There's a few put offs there, the padded dash etc and the Engine problems, but they aren't a big issues and can be fixed.
The main thing is that rust free body (and the original Momo's!... or are they repro?). I'd say you are looking at a conservative 10k to 12k, more with the dash sorted and the engine rebuilt.

The really good ones are nudging up towards 20k now, or at least that's what the adverts are asking.

Nice find, the RSA market is very interesting at the moment. Don't forget the shipping costs though, got top come off the value in the end.

[jimmcg]

Thanks for your comments VeloceMitch.

The MoMos look original, and I was told they were. However I would not know how to differentiate between original and reproduction ones.

The other thing that I was thinking is that the value of a South Africa import may be less than a UK equivalent, or maybe Alfa enthusiasts are not as picky on local heritage and originality.

I am getting a few quotes for shipping and duty/VAT in UK and it could easily double the cost of the car by the time it is street legal in the UK.

I was also looking at a restored 1600 Junior and the cost of a bare metal respray here is considerably less than in the UK. One car had inner/outer sills replaced and lower door sections etc plus a full respray for ZAR 25,000 (approx GBP 2000). However they suffer from the high cost of importing any spare parts, which normally come from the UK.

Jim

[arguti]

Jim

A few points. before you are falsely reassured re the bodywork, at the very least, lift up the interior carpets to see the condition of the floor pans underneath - you may have to remove a few screws but if I were selling my 1750 GTV to a serious Alfa buyer, that's what I would do for prospective buyers.

re cost of restoring in SA, I have seen seen some very poorly restored cars done in SA. there are not many people left in SA that will restore these cars properly as most of the bodyshops there are all modern car insurance work ie replace panels - I know this from a family member that deals in Italian classics in south Africa where I used to live.

I personally would pay to have the work done here in the UK where at least the parts/panels are readily available and I can go see the work as it progresses. Remote restorations don't work, ask me how I know! There are good people around who know these cars inside out.

if you want to see if the MOMOs are original, remove one of the wheels and at the back, there is usually a number cast such as 78 in a circle one one of the spokes which I assume refers to year of manufacture - you may need a wet wipe or something similar to remove some dust, etc to see. the originals will also have MADE IN ITALY cast on one of the inside spokes. Having said that ,would you want to drive fast on 30+ year old wheels or new repros? moot point that.

PS post a close up photo that includes section below the front lower corner of the front doors and the sill beneath it as poorly done sills in the past often "lose" the seam with filler.

[karlssondesign]

sa prices seem to be around 15% to 25% less than the uk prices mitch mentions. or they were 2 years ago when I was looking to import one. couldnt make the cost benefit with tax and shipping add up.

[El 4 Romeo]

Where are these cars? Inland cars have generally held up better than cars at the coast in terms of rust. The big issue for all of these cars (regardless of country of origin) are sill repairs and dodgy cover-ups as said before.
Check the footwells as well, particularly the passenger side. If the owner allows, jack the car up at all jacking points as a weak test for structural integrity and remove the doorcards to check for evidence of current or previous rust inside the door. Checking for seams at the sills might not achieve much as one can create seams with filler as well.
Is this a matching numbers car? If so and if genuinely rust-free, you are quite lucky. The engine, brakes and dashboard are minor expenses relative to the value. I agree with arguti that remote restoration is a bad idea unless it is a simple paintjob.
Cost of import from SA to UK Car Export Procedure From South AFrica to Europe - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Perhaps you can pose your question here as well http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/south-africa/ as someone might know the car.

[jimmcg]

Hi... sorry for the delay in replying to the last few posts... I have been travelling back to the UK. And I wish I had had more time looking at each of the cars I saw in SA.

The 1750 was a Johannesburg car but spent 10 years at the coast (East London). The GT Juniopr was a Pretoria car so Transvaal/Highveld = good. It was then moved closer to the coast (Petermaritzburg) and stored for a number of years before restoration this last year.

You mention losing the seam with putty. Are you referring to the seam between the outer sill and the front wing? Or is it the seam where the inner and outer sills are joined? Here is a picture of the join between sill and wing. Feeling under the sill there is a definite proud join of the sills but spot welds (not too neat) but clearly evident of new metal replacement.

On a separate note I have looked at a UK car which has been repainted and is with a dealer. Feeling under this sill it is totally flat i.e. no proud flange/seam between inner and outer sill. This is a 1975 gt 1600 junior. I assume I should be suspicious of a bodge?

Sorry for all the queries but I am quite new to the Guilia range.

Jim

[VeloceMitch]

The join in the photo is fairly normal, it shows the wing and the outer sill are two different pieces, the sill tucks under the wings both front and back. This is why when replacing sills you need to cut away the bottom part of both front and rear wings. Some earlier repair panels didn't tuck under, they simply stopped where the wing starts, so this area tended to be seam welded up and filled with filler so no line between the two was visible, crafty people would form the join with filler but it's easy to tell.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at regarding the join between inner and middle sills, again these are two different pressings so would be spot welded originally and on any decent repair. I suppose the factory spots would be harder to detect though so an original join might feel smooth. A high quality restorer would ground them smooth too.

[jimmcg]

Thanks to all for the good info. Much appreciated. I have now put together a set of costs for getting a car back to the UK and I am chickening out as I am worried about any resprays/body restorations where I cant see any photos of the work done and the cost of shipping + duty + VAT doubles the cost of the car. I will keep searching in the UK and hope something comes up. Many thanks again.

[VeloceMitch]

As your first step into 105 ownership I think that's wise.

You might find this book useful.

The Alfa Romeo Giulia GT Coupe (Essential Buyer's Guide Series): Amazon.co.uk: Keith Booker: Books

Not sure what your budget is but this one looks good.

Classic Chrome: Alfa Romeo GT 1600 Junior - 1975 (N) - Ochre Yellow Coupe

[jimmcg]

I have just ordered the book!

I have been tracking the yellow GT Junior from Classic Chrome for a while and drove it yesterday. It feels very good. Suspension is tight, no rattles or clunks. The engine has slight tappet noise but I think this is normal. Pulls quite well and gearbox pretty good. Using a magnet (provided by the great chaps at Classic Chrome) there are a number of spots on the bodywork that seem to not to stick too well. Unfortunately there is little to no history on the car (lost in a house move) and no pictures at all of the body restoration. A few other weird things like a very badly fitted back bumper and rear side window that does not close or seal at all. Other than that the paintwork is good and looks great in yellow. So another gambol on another undocumented restoration and yet quite a high price tag.

By the way if there is anyone you know of with in-depth professional knowledge of these cars who is in the West London area and could scrutinise a car for me, I would be prepared to pay them for the service.

Jim

[jimmcg]

I have just ordered the book!

I have been tracking the yellow GT Junior from Classic Chrome for a while and drove it yesterday. It feels very good. Suspension is tight, no rattles or clunks. The engine has slight tappet noise but I think this is normal. Pulls quite well and gearbox pretty good. Using a magnet (Spot Rot detector provided by the great chaps at Classic Chrome) there are a number of spots on the bodywork that seem to not to stick too well at all. Unfortunately there is little to no history on the car (lost in a house move) and no pictures at all of the body restoration. A few other weird things like a very badly fitted back bumper and rear side window that does not close or seal at all. Other than that the paintwork is good and looks great in yellow. So another gambol on another undocumented restoration and yet quite a high price tag.

By the way if there is anyone you know of with in-depth professional knowledge of these cars and their restoration, who is in the West London area and could scrutinise a car for me, I would be prepared to pay them for the service.

Jim

[VeloceMitch]

Hi Jim. Can I suggest you get in touch with the Alfa owners Club, there are a number of people in the London area who may be able to help.

AROC has a very good forum which is very useful for classic owners it's only open to members, but I know of a few regular contributors who would probably offer assistance. Somebody might know that car too, so I will drop a post about it and see what comes out.

Obviously it's difficult to know if any of the points you have picked up mean anything, the rear side window, might be just an issue with the rubbers. A magnet is useful, but to be fair even if the body is sound it wouldn't be unusual to use filler to get the shape right where panels have been welded in, so the magnet might not stick evenly everywhere.

Tappety Engine is unlikely to be a problem, might just need the valve clearance adjusting, generally speaking the Oily bits of 105's is the least problematic.

[Erik Loye]

Alfa Nord engines are a bit tappery when valves gabs are at factory specs, normaly Alfa engine builders assemble valves tighter than specs - intake 0,4-0,45 exhaust 0,5 mm.
Here is a pic of how the sill is build up on my Spider (GTs are the same)
Erik

[jimmcg]

Cheers Mitch and Erik. Much obliged for your help.

[arguti]

Body restorations/rust repairs are a bit like surgery in that the inexperienced look at the bright and shiny paintwork or external scar whereas those in the trade want to see what was done under the external layers as that will determine how long the restoration will last.

Remember also that Alfa were notorious for inconsistency re paintwork, non existent rust protection. Currently having my 1987 Alfasud Sprint restored and what amuses me is that when the external sills were removed, some of the inner sills are pristine and still covered in wax and yet other external panels did not even have primer under the paint.

On other restorations, most of the money has gone into undoing previous bodges so when looking at restored cars, I would always ask to see who has done the restoration people like Ian Ellis etc will turn out a good job as they know these cars backwards.

I think you did the wise thing by not rushing into a quick purchase - you would have had a long time to reflect on that decision. like with all classics, buy one where the previous owner has spent all the big money already. Sadly, because of the popularity of these Giulia coupes, you are fairly unlikely to find a undervalued cut price bargain in the UK.

[VeloceMitch]

Originally Posted by Erik Loye

Alfa Nord engines are a bit tappery when valves gabs are at factory specs, normaly Alfa engine builders assemble valves tighter than specs - intake 0,4-0,45 exhaust 0,5 mm.
Here is a pic of how the sill is build up on my Spider (GTs are the same)
Erik

Erik.. I'm puzzled by that picture, because GT's are not the same as that, the outer sill (in black here) will go right past the front wing to the wheel arch and be covered by the wing repair section, it's shaped over the bottom of the A post. I've never dismantled a Spider though so couldn't comment on those.

[jimmcg]

Thanks Arguti. Sound advice. My last venture into a TR6 ended up with the body coming off in multiple pieces and even more after bead blasting. I was able to pull the seatbelt mounting out with my hands! The hood frame was the only thing holding the B post in place (+ a lot of fibreglass). Ended up converting a California body to RHD. 5 years later it looked like this. I will take things slowly and look for more cash! PS. Are we allowed to mention non-Alfas here

[VeloceMitch]

Originally Posted by jimmcg

PS. Are we allowed to mention non-Alfas here

Yes but only if you point out others rust too.....

Seriously that TR looks bad, did you recover it?

[VeloceMitch]

By the way here are a few of shots of my 1750 having it's NS sills rebuilt. You can clearly see the black coloured outer sill panel running under the bottom of the front wing (cut away here).

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...fitting009.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...7/41fd9008.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...fitting002.jpg

[jimmcg]

Originally Posted by VeloceMitch

Some earlier repair panels didn't tuck under, they simply stopped where the wing starts, so this area tended to be seam welded up and filled with filler so no line between the two was visible

Hi VeloceMitch. This is the sort of thing I think you are referring to where the seam has disappeared? This was from one of the South African (no rust) cars I saw.

[VeloceMitch]

Yes that's what I mean, there is no visible joint at all. It might mean somebody has used the right panels but carefully filled the joint. Or more likely he has used some of the earlier incorrect repair panels. It's not a good sign really.

[jimmcg]

Thanks Mitch

[papajam]

There is evidence round every corner that the GT has the sill seams showing. The Spiders are a different matter though. There is a good discussion on the subject here but it draws no firm conclusion.

[Erik Loye]

I didn't knew that there was a difference in the way the sill of Spiders and GTs were executed, but realize that the Spiders needs more structural stiffness in the sill and inner structure.
However, the question of filling in the seam and whether both seams were filled or only the front have been discussed widely on many (all) Alfa Classico forums.
In most cases I've followed the conclusion has been that it depended on whether Luigi felt like it or not.
NB! In my manual for my 1970 S2 Spider no seams are shown in either photos or drawings.
When I had my bodged over several times (the were a total mess inside) sills renewed, my coach builder made both front and rear seams visible like this.
Erik