Ignition timing help - how to set tdc?

[SimonGTV]

Hi,

I need to set the timing and points on my S2. How to i set tdc.

I can't see a mark on the crankshaft pulley or a reference mark on the engine?

And how do i rotate the crankshaft pulley, access is very poor for hands or tools, do i need to take the radiator off?

thanks

[ALFA TUNER]

If you clean your crank pulley with some fine emery cloth you will seethree marks

[spiderserie4]

you must have marks there, somewhere, at least 3 I think - and a pointer on the engine. If you find them clean them up and rub a little chalk or white crayon in the grooves! (or tippex works too)

If you cant turn the crank with the pulley by hand, remove all the plugs and try again - or push the car in 4th gear till you are close to the mark, then do the final bit with your hands.
If the cam cover is off you will have the front cam lobes pointing out away from each other. At TDC the dizzy rotor will be pointing to cyl 1 (pointing to the front of the car about 4 o clock if you look down at the dizzy from straight above)

TDC can be checked roughly by putting a long screwdriver down no 1 plug hole resting on the piston crown and turn the crank till screwdriver is at its highest - if the rotor is not pointing to no 1 cylinder, turn the whole thing again another complete cycle so that you are on compression stroke for cyl. no 1. - then you should spot the timing mark there somewhere!

[SimonGTV]

thanks, i took the radiator off and i can now see the marks and am able to crank by hand but which of the 3 marks do i use?

When i line it up with P on the mark and also checked with srewdriver test which i thought you did the rotor arm points stright back along the line of the car so quarter past 3 is the line of site from above with the contact pointing to the rear of the , is this ok

Also, can i start the car to test it with no coolant in or radiator on

???????

thanks

[SimonGTV]

With the dist cap off i can see a mark on the body pointing to the first plug so i assume this is where the arm needs to be pointing, the problem is that its pointing 45 degrees to the left.

How do i line them up?

thanks

[spiderserie4]

here are the timing marks - ignore the "I" on this diagram, this is for US spica models.
Alfa 4-cylinder Timing Marks

P is correct for setting tdc, but the rotor should be pointing to the front of the car at least (ignore 3 or 4 o clock at the moment, main thing is it is pointing front to roughly where the no 1 cyl spark lead would be on the cap (no 1 cylinder is front of the engine ) If not, turn the crankshaft through a full revolution (always turn clockwise) as you might not be on "compression" stroke, but on tdc for cyl 4 - try that and report back.

I have started my car without water for a few seconds to test but don't go letting it get hot, you will warp the head or worse.

EDIT! Your F and P positions might be swopped as I presume you do not have a US import - but as long as it is marked P, that is the one you want!

[SimonGTV]

thanks for your help spiderserie4, its much appreciated.

I'm happy with tdc as i'vd lined up the P and also done the screwdriver test. The issue seems to be at the distributer end. As mentioned the rotor points to the rear of the car, howver the mark on the dist body (pointing to the first plug in the engine) is 45 dgrees to the right.

But when i checked the leads the one from plug 2 goes to the postion of the mark on the dist body and the lead from plug 1 lines up with the arse end of the rotor, to the front of the car.

my camera has also died but im charging it to take some pics

thanks

[SimonGTV]

hope this makes it clearer?

on the first pic i've marked the line with tipex which you can just see left of 12 o'clock

[spiderserie4]

just because the screwdriver is at top of its ride height, and the c/s pulley is on P does not mean you have tdc on cyl 1 on the compression stroke - that is why I would certainly turn the crank one more full rev.

However if you are dead vert that it is on tdc, but the rotor faces back to the rear of the car then check:
On the distributor cap, where is no. 1 lead entering, is it roughly at 3 to 4 o' clock?
If it happens to be where no 4 lead should be, then the dizzy has been put back in 180 degrees out.

[SimonGTV]

right i think we're getting somewhere

i turned the crank another full turn and the rotor is now 180 degrees to the pic. the front of the arm now lines up with the lead to plug one even though its not lined up with the mark.

Anyway i gave it a go and it started, i dont now how it ran as i turned it off quickly bit it sounded fine, if it starts is it ok?

thanks

[VeloceMitch]

This keeps confusing me too, both my engines appear to have number one in the wrong place on the dizzy. I think this is actualy possible with the nord engine if it is assembled wrong. The crank and therefore the pulley can be a single rotation out of place relative to the cams, so you end up with number one on the dizzy at 2 o-clock not 4 o-clock. The engine runs fine, but just doesn't match the book.

[spiderserie4]

yep I reckon you are getting there! rotor points to lead one (front of car), pulley mark lines up on P then you have correct tdc and static timing! If it started fairly easily you must have the static timing right. Then you can set points gap correctly in this position.
You should also check maximum advance with a timing light (strobe light) at 5000 rpm and the "M" mark on the pulley should line up with the little pointer on the engine (hence I said it would be good to mark this with tippex or something to make it easier to see under the strobelight)
EDIT: and if not the case loosen the dizzy securing clamp and turn the whole dizzy slightly one way or the other till it does line up on the M mark at 5000 rpm - then retighten clamp bolt.

But if it started first go, sounds good to me

[SimonGTV]

thanks, yes it started 2nd time which was pretty good as it was getting to 4 or 5 times thats why i started the job.

I set the points and they're fine, i haven't got a strobe but will get one tomorrow.

If the strobe show its out how do i adjust it, i don't want to put the rad back on only to take it off again

ta

[spiderserie4]

Originally Posted by SimonGTV

If the strobe show its out how do i adjust it, i don't want to put the rad back on only to take it off again ta

You will need to put back the Rad as advance timing with a strobe takes a little time and you have to rev it to 5000rpm, and, i would only do that with the rad in, new water (I only use distilled water with 50% antifreeze, summer and winter) - timing is perfectly easy to set with the rad in place!
You do the advance timing by turning (advancing or retarding) the distributor, so nowhere near the rad - the strobe just points down on the pulley timing marks when the engine is revving - rad doesn't interfere.
I would however suggest you clean up the timing marks on the pulley and mark the M as I said, and degrease the little pointer before refitting the rad. Makes spotting the timing marks easier

[SimonGTV]

thats great

thanks for your help, much appreciated

i'll let you know how it goes

[SimonGTV]

put it back together this morning and all good, runs alot better.

except for the brakes!

[sitatt]

Just a note to say thanks loads for all of the info in this post! Just stripped and rebuilt a series 2 spider head and block in situ and am at this phase of rebuild so great info on the timing setup, particularly as i have the Spica system! It would possibly explain the rough running of the car when i picked it up! It appears that things were all over the place when i took it to bits and nothing seemed to make sense!! Its reciprocating internal combustion basics, but this thread is worth a mint!! Thanks guys!

Si