Quite an interesting on-track comparison...

[alfaquad]

Alfa vs BMW

Alfa Romeo Alfetta 159i
Stock 4-cylinder motor (Down on power to other stock 2.0 NORDs)
Stock brakes (Solid discs, stock calipers, stock Midas road pads)
Front suspension: Spax Adjustable Shocks + GTV6 Torsion bars
Rear suspension: Koni Adjustable Shocks
Stock gearbox, no LS-Diff
14" Bridgestone Semi-slick tyres (old)
Weighs 1007kg without driver.

BMW E30 325i
Stock 6-cylinder motor with fast road cams.
Front brakes: BMW E90 Calipers + MINI JCW Discs
Rear brakes: Stock
Front suspension: Koni Adjustable Coilovers
Rear suspension: Koni FSD Shocks
Short-ratio E36 323i Gearbox + LS-Diff
17" Federal Semi-slick tyres
Weighs 1212kg without driver.

On Sunday's SuperTrax Day we both bettered out fastest laps in our cars around Zwartkops. I did 1.25.9 vs his 1.21.9 - 4 seconds slower than the BMW. Click on the times to see the on-board footage of the laps.

Hennie's 145 killed the BMW on the straights.

Have a look at this video to see the power difference between my car and his car. I'm going flat-out the whole time.

Alfa vs BMW

I think the Alfa has a lot of potential for some fast lap-times if I can just get some more power out of it!

[henniev]

Originally Posted by alfaquad

Alfa vs BMW


Hennie's 145 killed the BMW on the straights.

Damn, I wish that was actually true but I have to admit that he had the edge on the straights - I was all over him on every corner and the 145 definitely could out brake him.

The BM looked really nice

[Ian Lusso]

Originally Posted by henniev

Damn, I wish that was actually true but I have to admit that he had the edge on the straights - I was all over him on every corner and the 145 definitely could out brake him.

The BM looked really nice

What's your lap times like Hennie? Are you quicker through the corners (lets say he wasn't there to slow you down)?
What do you reckon a track prepped GTV 3.0 would do? I've been thinking...

[Gertie]

Originally Posted by Ian Lusso

What do you reckon a track prepped GTV 3.0 would do? I've been thinking...

The GTV is not a light car, but I reckon if you strip it out properly and set suspension properly you could be good for 1:17's or less (that start depending on your stride width)

[WILDCARD]

I would to see a video of Hennie's 145 against the BMW.
I wish One day soon I can see Your 145 in live action Hennie.
If all goes well my leave planning is set for July next year then I will come up to Gauteng with the 146.

[Ian Lusso]

Originally Posted by Gertie

The GTV is not a light car, but I reckon if you strip it out properly and set suspension properly you could be good for 1:17's or less (that start depending on your stride width)

What makes a GTV heavy is it's rigidity, as it carries a lot of what was engineered into the Spider to make it rigid. Not that anyone would want to remove any of the rigidity as that is a good thing for track racing. But I'm sure you could reduce weight by 280kg making the car weigh in at 1200kg if you strip out sound deadening materials, electric windows, seats, spare wheel, tools, bumper stifeners, etc?

I see the Alfetta 159 still weighing in at over 1000kg when it's been stated that their licensing mass is 1100kg?

[alfaquad]

Originally Posted by Ian Lusso

What makes a GTV heavy is it's rigidity, as it carries a lot of what was engineered into the Spider to make it rigid. Not that anyone would want to remove any of the rigidity as that is a good thing for track racing. But I'm sure you could reduce weight by 280kg making the car weigh in at 1200kg if you strip out sound deadening materials, electric windows, seats, spare wheel, tools, bumper stifeners, etc?

I see the Alfetta 159 still weighing in at over 1000kg when it's been stated that their licensing mass is 1100kg?

My Alfetta has had a lot removed - interior is out, including rubberising, has 18kg passenger seat in that will go out when I'm racing... No bumpers, no front valance on my car, no AC pumps and all that. I still need to remove the roof-lining and cut the spare-wheel well out the boot and replace with aluminium sheet. Then the glass has to go to, will replace with Lexan. The door innards will also be cut out. Original fuel tank will be taken out and replaced with something that doesn't weigh a ton! All this, just to fit a roll-cage and still end up around the 1000kg mark without driver.

The GTV is stated as weighing 1465kg on my license disc - I think it's heavier. There's a lot of weight to be shed, but you'll struggle to get under 1300kg I rate once roll-cage is fitted and all. The can be very quick round the track, but I honestly don't think it's worth the cost when you can make an Alfetta or Giulietta or Alfetta GTV which is RWD faster than a modern FWD V6. My Alfetta has cost me next to nothing to date. I've had awesome fun with it. Just need power and need to do all the weight-reduction and fit the bigger brakes, then this car will be quite quick. Fun, and quick, for a fraction of the cost of any modern car!

Hennie, on all the videos from inside the BMW, you pull the BMW quite substantially out of T2 to T4. Same up to T5. Only times he managed to get past you was when there was traffic and you stuck behind them. That BMW is such a nice car to drive, and handles damn well.

How much power are you making now? How much does the car weigh? What lap-times are you doing?

[henniev]

Originally Posted by alfaquad

Hennie, on all the videos from inside the BMW, you pull the BMW quite substantially out of T2 to T4. Same up to T5. Only times he managed to get past you was when there was traffic and you stuck behind them. That BMW is such a nice car to drive, and handles damn well.

How much power are you making now? How much does the car weigh? What lap-times are you doing?

I am still on 92kw at the moment - best around the Z is a 1:20.02. No idea what she weighs. The BM is definitely stronger but I guess my entry and exit speeds are a lot faster than his. My top speed before T4 is just over 150km/hr and exit speed is 120km/hr - get the picture?

The thing with the GTV is not only weight but parts. If you redecorate the wall behind T1, you might find yourself spending a lot on body parts were a other alfas its easy to obtain - I replaced my whole body for R1500. I like the idea of a GTV racer but would prefer a 2L. Its lighter and a lot easier to mod and the rear suspension is way better that the 145.

The 156 Gerrit bought made 118Kw and best lap was a 1:15 by Lee Thompson. I still need to get a better picture of all the mods done ... I still think that was a good buy

[turbonutters]

If you visit Gerhard today you will see whats inside the motor.
Not sure if its the same motor since there was story's of 2.1 and a lot of other things.
Apart from the Piston's and cams your motor's bottom is better prepared Hennie. SO there's still space for improvement when Gertie decide it is time

As for GTV.
Yes Ian the Spider stiffening in the GTV contributes to most of the weight.
By changing the front of my blue GTV we removed about 16kg in front of the wheels and cutting the boot floor also removed a lot of weight. The bonnet and bumpers are also extremely heavy so replacing with light weight fiberglass units will save at least 20kg in my opinion. The dash is heavy since it is constructed like a 70's unit with a metal internal structure. The metal cage surrounding a metal fuel tank also ad a lot of weight and could be shaved substantially especially if you fit a cage. The front foot well is fitted with additional steel sheets that can also be removed. And the list continues.
Bottom line with a cage fitted you can remove a lot of weight from the gtv.

[alfaquad]

Originally Posted by henniev

I am still on 92kw at the moment - best around the Z is a 1:20.02. No idea what she weighs. The BM is definitely stronger but I guess my entry and exit speeds are a lot faster than his. My top speed before T4 is just over 150km/hr and exit speed is 120km/hr - get the picture?

The thing with the GTV is not only weight but parts. If you redecorate the wall behind T1, you might find yourself spending a lot on body parts were a other alfas its easy to obtain - I replaced my whole body for R1500. I like the idea of a GTV racer but would prefer a 2L. Its lighter and a lot easier to mod and the rear suspension is way better that the 145.

The 156 Gerrit bought made 118Kw and best lap was a 1:15 by Lee Thompson. I still need to get a better picture of all the mods done ... I still think that was a good buy

Hennie, I assume that that is 92wkw and not at the fly? What have you done to the motor so far? Which dyno was this read on?

I was lying in bed last night thinking about it - a 2.0 TS 16V motor will probably make more sense than an 8V Nord in the Alfetta... How much would I be able to pick up a running 2.0 TS 16V for you rate?

[dkr]

Fitting a 16v TS motor in an 116 chassis is not going to be the easiest thing. The 16V ts has a cast iron block with the engine mount in a very different place to the nord block. The best is to go for a nord TS 8v from the 75 or early 155. The bell housing is also very different but a plat can be manufactured for that. see pic of a 155 ts block being pulled.

[corriedw]

The 8v TS made the same kW as the 16v TS in standard tune. The 16v is more tune-able and can handle higher revs but is lower on torque(read more difficult to drive).

The assumption is often made that a rwd cars handle beter than a fwd. I disagree with that, up to 120wkW(160whp) fwd has the edge in my opinion. Only then does understeer become a problem due to the power delivery.

Having the maximum hp from an engine is nice, but not having to continually spend on the engine to repair it is nicer. But if we didn't have this competitive streak we would never start these projects. But a lot of egos get in the way of the fun to be had.

[alfaquad]

Originally Posted by dkr

Fitting a 16v TS motor in an 116 chassis is not going to be the easiest thing. The 16V ts has a cast iron block with the engine mount in a very different place to the nord block. The best is to go for a nord TS 8v from the 75 or early 155. The bell housing is also very different but a plat can be manufactured for that. see pic of a 155 ts block being pulled.

If a 24V V6 motor can be made to fit in the 116 chassis, then I'm sure a TS 16V would be possible? It's just a much better option if you think about the scarcity of NORD parts these days... It will need some work, of course, but I'm sure it's possible!

[dkr]

Remember the busso was 3.0 engine is the same block as the GTV6, Alfa 6 block and therefore has the engine mounting already moulded into the block. Infact the studs are even installed. The TS 16v block is very different.

[dkr]

Here are the pic's of a Busso from a GTV 3.0 24v taken from the bottom and a nord 2.0 GTV 2000. The are the same. The TS 16v doesn't have anything like this. To make it fit is going to be a lot more manufacturing than the TS 8v.

[corriedw]

There is another factor for me here. Not measured, but experienced enjoyment.

With a standard 16v TS it is an art and not easy to drive the track quickly, as you must optimize braking points and the speed you carry. And when you get used to it, it feel safe, the woo disappear and you can to concentrate to give it your best.

With a road car giving 100W/kg, like the GTA/GTVs, this change a little. The adrenalin keep on flowing, because before every corner you end up that little bit faster. You can easily be at or over your and the car's limit through every corner.

I suppose with a track prepared car you can up the power/weight ratio again a little as now you get more exercise and with the right goodies, the car is more readable. Like Hennie says with a 16v TS track toy you have the same or better times than the 3.2s, and it is cheap and repairable. It just sound perfect to me.

[corriedw]

Double post

[henniev]

Originally Posted by Ian Lusso

What do you reckon a track prepped GTV 3.0 would do? I've been thinking...

Gentlemen, I just bought a 1997 GTV!! It needs an engine but the price was just too low to ignore and the car is very neat. So, now the big question is to repair and sell or to race ... and if I decide on the later, then what to do with the 145 ...

Any ideas??

[WILDCARD]

Originally Posted by henniev

Gentlemen, I just bought a 1997 GTV!! It needs an engine but the price was just too low to ignore and the car is very neat. So, now the big question is to repair and sell or to race ... and if I decide on the later, then what to do with the 145 ...

Any ideas??

If it is a 1997 GTV then I presume it was a 2.0 twin spark motor in there?
Fix the body up nicelly, repair all rust if there is, get it shaped nicelly, Spray it white or Zoe yellow. Although in my eyes any Alfa looks good in white!
And then you sort the suspension out nicelly with a H&R coils and some nice bilstein or koni shocks. Srt the suspension for a nice race setup.
Then you drop the motor and gearbox from the white 145 int the GTV!!!

[Gertie]

I know many decisions are taken on cash flow, only you can answer that part. I wouldn't take anything out the 145, it is proper now. Start fixing / building the GTV, race the 145 at least a few times in the meantime. You can decide to sell the 145 later when the GTV needs the cash injection for the last push.

[henniev]

Yep, going to get an engine from BW and just park the GTV for now. Really in two minds about this car

[Ian Lusso]

race it! I'll learn from you!

[turbonutters]

Swap me for the Blue GTV

[henniev]

Originally Posted by turbonutters

Swap me for the Blue GTV

will have to think about that one. Just bought an engine for R5K!! Now to get it across the border ...

[turbonutters]

Put it in your backpack.