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856 views 16 replies 8 participants last post by  Giorget2 
#1 ·
I must be one of the most scrutinized car owners because no matter who insures my vehicles, they always choose me for their "routine spot checks" when they decide to do so. It's all a farce though because they give you 30 days in which to bring your car to the assessment center and will then check tires, license, spare wheel and tool kit etc. Basically a conditional assessment and verification that the car is stock.

Since a few years ago they also photograph your car. "See, for record purposes, sir..."

These days I see they even open your bonnet and photograph your engine bay? And not the lady with the clip board ticking boxes on a spreadsheet, but they have someone in a white overcoat come over to inspect for mods! Anyone have this happen to you?

Not a single one of my mods are in any way visible to a man in a white overcoat since they are all internal so I don't really worry about this anyway. But: When does this become an invasion of privacy!?

I was once asked to get out of my car at a road block one evening and the police then proceeded to search my vehicle when someone else walked over and handed me a business card, asked them to stop what they were doing, told me to get back in and when they asked who he was, he said he was "my lawyer". He then proceeded to tell me that they do not even have the right to open my door without my permission or a search warrant. So why is your insurance allowed to do this? Is this a condition of insurance (either we do this or you can go elsewhere) or are they taking liberties? :thinking:

This has been happening in other countries as well.
 
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#3 ·
I have also never heard of this and I have been with many insurance companies. Some insurance companies ask you to take your car for an assessment in the first 30 days after taking out insurance to check for any existing damage. This is to prevent you from only taking out insurance after sustaining damage.
 
#4 ·
Ian is your insurance through a broker or one of the 'direct' guys? From what I understand (admittedly I'm not an insurance expert) They have the right to refuse a claim if you're mods 'increase performance' and are undeclared which i suppose is fair enough.

I went to see a lawyer a few years back when my mum had a claim repudiated by one of the well known direct companies and he reckoned they'll look for any and all ways to repudiate a claim if they can. BUT.......what I did discover about this particular insurer was they employed assessors who were mechanically clueless. The car had put a conrod through the engine block after being caught in a flash flood and the assessor basically said he was declining the claim because there was no crash damage :banghead:

As far as the cops searching your car...that makes me:rage::rage::rage: I've been stopped before also not knowing that they can't search your car without your express permission. They checked everything including the contents of my wallet and cellphone. Only afterwards did I learn that what they did was totally illegal.
 
#6 ·
So why is your insurance allowed to do this? Is this a condition of insurance (either we do this or you can go elsewhere) or are they taking liberties? :thinking:

This has been happening in other countries as well.
Read your insurance policy. :readit:

Read anything you sign thoroughly before you sign, and if you don't understand something you read in there, ask for it to be explained. If you don't like something it says, ask for it to be changed before you sign. If they won't change it, ask to speak to a superior who does have the authority to change the document. If this is not forthcoming, go to a different provider.
 
#7 ·
I see you are with the "direct" people. Probably means you signed up verbally over the phone? I never do this. Far too hard to know what you are actually getting and paying before signing up.

I've always found that working through an actual broker is much better. They are beholden to you for their commission, so they keep you happy and go out of their way to adapt the policy to your needs, and you can get everything on paper before signing anything.
 
#8 ·
This has never happened to me either - ever. But it is possible that your insurer has a contractual right to do so (conduct random inspections). Insurers are in the business of offering risk cover in return for annuity income (premiums) which they invest with the intention that their investment returns exceed their claims payouts so that the two major imperatives of their businesses are investment/asset management and claims management. Budget insurance which is often synonymous with direct (no broker/intedmediary) insurance manage their claims even more closely. The perception of the man in the street is often that some of these budget insurers are unscrupulous (especially when it comes to claims and repudiating claims). While this may be true occasionally the commercial reality is that they are much more particular about managing claims (lawfully - within the 4 corners of their contractual rights and obligations) which is one of the reasons that they are 'cheaper' because their successful claims history (read, contractually legitimate rejection of claims) is better than the mainstream insurers so that they can offer similar cover at lower premiums. So the reality is that while most insurers offer broadly similar contractual terms (because they all reinsure their risk with a handful of global re-insurers, and the CPA and the insurance ombud etc), the direct insurers have a commercial imperative to leverage the 'fine print' when it comes to claims. The latter is the 'real risk' with budget insurers (and not so much the common misconception that they are just unscrupulous or have unduly onerous contractual conditions) - that comes the time to claim they, for example, establish that one of your tyres is below legal tread depth and they repudiate your claim. To be sure, the major insurers have similar rights under their contracts but they choose not to be this pedantic because their income pool is greater and they rely on the 'ease of use' come claims time to maintain their market share. It is true that you should read before you sign but the idea that this gives you the power to vary standard T's & C's in any kind of standard commercial contracting is I am afraid illusory - ever tried varying the terms of your mortgage bond, Telkom, vehicle finance contract or insurance or life insurance or medical scheme contract? You must read so that you know what you signing up to but that's probably the limit of what is practically achievable with everyday standard form contracts with major corporates. Private contracting is of course a different matter and real 'freedom of contract(ing)' only happens where the respective parties commercial contracting power is equal - you and I - Joe Soap - do not have contracting power when dealing with Santam, Mutual and Federal, Outsurance, the banks and so on (see what happened to even the Guptas - LoL). Like Giorget says, if you happen to have the benefit of a personal or a business broker when doing you insurance they have a commission incentive to look after you come claims time as the intedmediary between you and your insurers and that is exactly what they do - at least the good ones (thank goodness for them) and this is one way of Joe Soap managing insurance repudiation risk. The other is to use insurers or are under less commercial pressure to screw you (however legitimately, in terms of their Std T's and C's) when you have a legitimate claim. 'Cheap' insurance can be a false economy and the sad truth is that people only find this out when they have a claim that is potentially financially crippling. Choose insurers with care! On a lighter note Ian, perhaps you should not have claimed for that bearing knock...or your taxi fender bender claims profile every two weeks given CT traffic at peak hour has gone off the radar ....LoL..cos now you are on a 'watch list'. Expect to check your insurer to demand to know your sugar levels & delivery of pee samples every week next......LOL again!!
 
#10 ·
I like how you but "cheaper" in quotation marks, juniorgtar. They are not cheaper. The "direct" guys are cheaper only when you get worse cover, which you could get for the same price or possibly even cheaper from a broker - just tell the broker that that is the type of cover you want, and you'll get a policy to suit your needs.
Remember, the broker thinks: "Well, if I sign the guy on for a really great car insurance policy at a low price today, I don't get a huge commission, but if he gets good service, he'll move all of his policies to me and I'll get a much bigger commission down the line!" As well as thinking that word gets around and it'll get him more clients, and then the last thing is that they do try to increase your premiums a lot every now and again for no apparent reason, in the hope that you will be too "polite" to question them, but when queried, the higher premium increases on mine have always been dropped again.

The "direct" people are popular because clients don't want to have to read policy forms. *gasp!* Having to READ something before paying money?! The thought!

Oh, and yes, I have varied the terms of a Telkom agreement (they were actually very good about it, if you find the right person) just by persistently arguing that if they change one thing, they'll get my money. It can be done - you'd be surprised. Obviously not huge changes to a contract like that, but scratching out provisions which would very rarely apply, that kind of thing - it is possible. I don't sign contracts if they contain clauses I think confer too great a risk upon me. If they won't change it, I walk away. In a case like Telkom, where they are desperate to retain or increase market share, you actually do have a (small) contracting position.

With insurance, with an actual broker, you can have the contract set up just the way you like it, with of course a commensurate increase or decrease in the cost depending on what you want changed. The last part is important - don't think you'll just get them to set up a contract much to your own benefit without them increasing the cost. But you get what you pay for.
 
#11 ·
My insurance premium has increased by 50 percent within three years and my excess by R700. I contacted Auto and General recently about the last increase and asked if an economist or actuary could explain the increases beyond the generic inflation / exchange rate rubbish. Needless to say, they did not get such a person to contact me. I then complained on Hellopeter and after requesting some information about how they calculate risk, they suggested I try another company.

I'm going to contact my broker on Monday to get me quotes from a non-Telesure company. I'd be surprised if the group is not a good candidate for a Competition Commission investigation.
 
#12 ·
If anyone's looking for a good broker and insurer I can't recommend Executive Brokers (an all lady run brokerage) with MUA enough.

I've claimed twice for my 147 (both not my fault) and twice for my previous Ford (also both not my fault) they've never given me uphill about claims and I'm able to submit valuation certificates each year from Chatz so they insure my cars (especially the Spider) at the right value. They've actually been increasing the insured value of my Spider year on year

I've always been able to choose the panelbeater I prefer and they've always had a decent hire car (1.6 sedan with a/c as specified in my policy) waiting for me when I drop off mine.

They're still fighting the scaley p#@% who drove into me the last time in a brand new BMW who didn't have insurance and said I assaulted him to get out of paying.
 
#14 ·
"Insurance Companies" are a farce. There are probably only 2 different companies but they are ALL owned by each other. Go into SMD and see the names on their wall: Santam, Outsurance, Budget, Auto&General, Mutual&Federal... I always compare prices annually but then specify specifically what I want in my insurance and compare costs. That way Budget isn't as cheap anymore because they don't cut out the courtesy car option on 2 of the 3 cars for example. But the strange thing is, the very next day Outsurance will call me and ask to review my profile with me and more often than not, they provide a discount of some sorts "because you are a valued client". I call BS. It's because they are the same people as Budget, First For Women (biggest farce) and whoever else you wish to include here. That's why Hippo can get you quotes within a minute. It's because they are all the same place.

I also need to mention that outsurance although being a phone insurance company is by no means "cheap" as implied in one of the posts. The reason why I moved was because my Santam policy which didn't reduce when I moved to Vredendal, suddenly increased when I moved back to Cape Town because higher risk and they were not willing to change that so I told them to go stuff themselves and went to outsurance. I got exactly the same cover that I had with Santam because I went through the policy word for word with them and made them include everything with minor changes here and there.

I have always received great service with outsurance. I just posed the question because it seems to be an invasion of privacy and an unnecessary hassle to have to take time out for them to check my car. And at one time they even asked me for my tracker details. That was when I asked them politely to go and stuff themselves royally.
 
#17 ·
"Insurance Companies" are a farce. There are probably only 2 different companies but they are ALL owned by each other.
Well, this is not a secret. The main company which has a massive lot of different brands (A&G, Budget, dialdirect, 1st for Women, Virseker, etc.) is Telesure, Douw Steyn's company. Hippo is also part of Telesure. It's not like they hide it: https://www.telesure.co.za/telesure/brands-companies

Outsurance is a brand of Rand Merchant Bank (Rand Merchant Investment Holdings, to be precise), so in the same stable as FNB. It is not part of Telesure.

Santam is also separate from Telesure, it's its own entity and listed on the JSE.

Mutual and Federal is part of the Old Mutual Group, which also has Nedbank as a constituent part.
 
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