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PROJECT getting autogas (LPG) working properly on JTS engines

26K views 61 replies 18 participants last post by  mash4077 
#1 ·
Hello everybody,

here is an Alfa freak leading an "Illuminati crusade" to open eyes to the Germans here in Berlin, on how Alfas are good cars in reality :D

had several of them in my life, see attached photos:

  • 146 1.3 boxer (man I loved that car!)
  • 156 1.6TS (sold it only since I wanted more power :eek:)
  • 159 2.2JTS SW (sold it only since I wanted more power :eek:)
  • now driving 159 3.2JTS Q4 SW Ti (oh God what a machine! this one is the topic of the thread)
  • now driving 146 1.6 boxer (shopping trolley and daily enjoyment in boxer engine sound)

as you can see from the photos, had installed BRC LPG on first 3 cars and last one (trying to afford this life-style), only one giving me a problems was the 2.2JTS engine (sometimes problem with overheating). find out that afterwards BRC stopped offering the equipment for JTS engines. Similar with the Landi Renzo, Viale, Prince.

It seams that JTS engines have few minor problems with gas:

  • since having WCOC (water cooled oil cooler) if mostly running on LPG, oil does not contribute enough in cooling engine and overheat happens
  • LPG has bigger energy value than petrol, therefore by burning is developing more heat
  • JTS engines run on so called "lean burn" principle, which means higher temps (even with the petrol) then the normal TSs and other engines
  • am not sure if the fuel is used in engine head for cooling valve seats (like on, for example, Ford Z engines), any clue?

All this indicates that something special with the extra cooling has to be done, if we want to make JTS running on LPG.

Company Viale (Netherlands) is having the solution to similar lean burn direct petrol injection engines from VW group (TSFI), but they still do not have dedicated solution for the JTS (unfortunately, JTS itself is not produced any more and ARs are definitly not manufactured as bloody VWs, so not great business case). But it seams that they have sorted out the problems.

My dealership in Berlin told me that they still offer BRC system with pre-warning that there are some troubles to expect (over-heating) and that they do not recommend it.

As you can see, am interested in converting my 3.2JTS since only thing that hurts me with it is the consumption (which I knew ahead, BUT with the prices and all of the technical benefits that LPG brings, still makes quite an improvement opportunity).

I have started slowly to research more on this topic (Wikipedia). It seams that LPG gives some 10% more heat energy (in total, meaning simply speaking that we need to improve the overall cooling for min 10%). Since most affected is the oil (due to WCOC principle), there are few ideas how to sort this out.

First seams to be the simpliest: increase the volume of the water cooler body for 10% and more. For this there might be few sub-options.

1A would be to check with the AR dealership if bigger standard sizes are available (for example for south Europe or Australia markets). OEM size is shown on one of the attached pics. Maybe also the WCOC bigger size is available? Need to check this with my dealer. Maybe some hint from you guys?

1B would be adding some additional water cooler (volume of >10%) either at the feed line to oil cooler or in parallel to mail water cooler.​

Second idea (technically, my personal favorite) was to fully de-couple the OEM WCOC (red colored bit on schematics) from the water cooling circuit (which should already increase the cooling effect itself) and add some sport aluminum alloy oil cooler (for example MOCAL), oil filter off-take (enabling using easy to remove/replace more standardized filters, by using bigger size filter we could reduce drag in the oil circuit and airwashed wall size could be increased for further improvement of the oil cooling ==> saw somewhere that some special ribs are available on the market that could be wrapped around the oil cooler to increase the cooling). Oil flow control thermostat and potentially some electric fan might need to be installed. In this case, idea would be to increase the cooling volume ONLY of the oil cooler (since we allready gained something by decoupling the oil system from oil system. With this we might get even better cooling all-in-all.

BUT, the biggest problem of the ideas 1B and 2 is the space for adding that additional cooler. Idea 2 requires smaller cooler (volume increase relative to OEM) and I would really like to play more with the oil system directly since offering few more benefits.

Initial idea for the option 2 was to (somehow) make the air off-take above the port side headlight cluster by removing part of the sealing between the bonnet and the cluster (see blue colored schematics). This approach has additional benefit on the overall car's aerodynamics, since those beautiful headlight clusters ain't the most aerodynamic features of the car (Cx of the SW is 0.32 which is quite high for the modern cars). So: by off-taking that "trapped" air, we might improve the aerodynamics on that side. You might be asking what about the other side? Well, my idea was to use similar principle of the off-take and replace the OEM cold air intake circuit with an custom made airbox and some high-flow air filter.

Unfortunately, everybody who once opened the bonnet of an 3.2JTS noticed how cramped and busy the space is behind the headlight clusters, especially on the port side. Which introduces the first minor problem: port side is not ideal for installation of the additional oil cooler. By the way, I made some investigation on how big the oil coolers have to be for the V6 3.2ish liter engines. 3L GTV uses 19 row 115 mm wide Mocal oil cooler while GTA 3.2L V6 uses 19 row 230 mm wide Mocal oil cooler !?!?!?! Ok, to stay on the safe side, might be good idea to use the 230 mm wide one (bear in mind that we want to increase the cooling capacity and that >10% rule is not simply linear when doing this ONLY on the oil system).

So this leaves us to either some more complex air extraction from the port side (not impossible, but more complex), relocating some electrical units (not desirable), installing the oil cooler at BDC in front of the mail water cooler (behind the Scudetto, Fast & Furious type :D ) or installing it in the space where OEM air filter box was before (GTAs have this installation type, but this requires your final decision to go for airbox).

Hope that this explains a bit the problems and could ignite some brainstorming here how to sort this out. Bear in mind that I want to do all this changes WITHOUT any impact on the optics of the car (I simply love it (what "love it"? I adore it) just the way it is!

Additional option is to start "molesting" VIALE with multiple requests, maybe they decide to help us. :cry: :cheese: :thumbs:
 

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#43 · (Edited)
bmf_cw, I had that system on my previous 159 (2.2JTS)

unfortunately, there were few problems with it,where I was not sure what was more problem: heating of the engine or provenly bad installation of the system.

what is worse, nobody wants to install that BRC system again

EDIT: although, now seeing that BRC promoting LDI system. let me check in more detail
 
#44 ·
Official answer coming from BRC today:
BRC has studied the LPG installation on the 3,2 JTS engine.
But due to problems with the engine, the development has been stopped.
So we do not have a solution to convert your car to LPG.

:irked::readit:
 
#45 ·
I think the only way you can improve your mileage is to extend the lean burn sequence to 3000 rpm and monitor your egts and knock sensor, use a higher degree oil e.g. 10w60 and some ceramic additive like LiquiMoly, keep the egr open for a longer time to compensate pumping losses, use a lower temperature opening thermostat, use the first cam phase for longer time for smaller valve overlap angle... After all the only explainable reason for this low mileage would be a too conservative tune.
 
#46 ·
bmf_cw, many thanks for this answer, it is nice to speak with someone trained in arts. so hard to find this days where all maintenance consists of: "it doesn't work? replace whole lot" nobody bothers any more to understand the root cause.

now, next big thing is to try to find here in Berlin some capable mechanics (sweet jeeez, electric) who could help with this.

regarding the higher degree oil: 10W60 (Selenia Racing) is my standard oil for everything from ARs to Vespa and before even on Smart ForTwo Cdi :biglaugh: great stuff! now testing Millers Nano Oil, of course in 10W60 spec, on Vespa. if positive experience, will try it on big Alfa

do you have recommendation P/N for the lower temp opening thermostat that I could use?

regarding the reasons I wrote in separate thread on exhausts. our engine is heavy breather because we have 2+2 cats, plus pipework is not the best. same from the air intake side. plus what you wrote, probably cam phases were not tuned enough (cost savings during development process :censored: ). saw some videos on YouTube of Japanese (!) guys using some Ricambi cam shafts and with some minor changes on exhaust made miracle for the car! from my perspective, if engine any way needs to go out for installing Autodelta's manifolds, would be good time to get Ricambi's cam shafts done as well. well, that will need to wait for a bit better times money-wise. :readit:
 
#48 ·
got answer from BRC Italy yesterday: they do only LDI syste currently for some Kia and Hyundai models !?!?!?!?!

asked them about Sequent system (then) and they forwarded me to som dealership here in Germany. nice

if the LDI systems (liquid phase Direct Injection) are so simple and minimum intrusive to the existing gasoline system of the car, leaving only bit to sort is map, why da hell they are not offering more this system (BRC and Viale)? why there is no independent "tuner" which is able to make the map on their hardware and make the system working
 
#49 ·
Hi guys,

Just wanted to congratulate you for the great topic. I am also driving one of those great machines (3.2 JTS Q4) and I am very interested in the possibilities to convert it for LPG. I believe that the liquid phase LPG is the best invention in the field for the last years and I would vote for this with both hands. I am not that familiar with the engineering details, as you guys, but what I have heard/read on the topic, it seems to address some of your concerns - the extra heating may be, because of the "volume effect" of the liquid LPG which provides some cooling. But I would be interested to see the actual numbers and weather it will suffice the calculated requirements for reliable conversion, or it will again require additional things/alterations. Theoretically this should also improve both power and ecology as well, which is great. But what I have head from others that have used such systems, the weak point in this system is the pump in the gas tank, as it is very much depends on the quality of the LPG.
 
#53 ·
yeah, autogas is great, both for your budget and nature.

at this moment autogas costs 0.42 EUR (cheapest I've found in Berlin) compared to 1.32 EUR gasoline 95 octane

smoothest solution seams to be replacing the OEM radiator with the custom made high efficiency one that fits bolt-on the original place

next to that solution is additional small radiator: I found one from 156's cabin heater on eBay. just need proper connection work and installation position. some people here recommended putting it in front of main radiator. I prefer previously mentioned solution, looks neater and with less possibilities that something goes wrong

oil system conversion seams to me now bit too much

so, 1st step try to find the autogas system, then order the custom made higher efficiency cooler.

just that damn 1st step!
 
#50 ·
LPG is a big thing in Australia, people pay thousands to get their cars converted or fitted with an additional tank, most times Fords and Holdens.
I can't imagine it on a 2.2 JTS but? Have read about this engine being sensitive to fuels and can confirm it with my own experience as sometimes it idles poorly or doesn't start first time when using a full tank of Premium 98, there's a few threads on this.

Apart from the heat issue you noted in first post, how is the 2.2 with LPG?
 
#51 ·
Australia welcome!

look, as written before, I can not judge exactly how was the Autogas on my previous 2.2JTS for few reasons. the main one is that the company (mechanic) which did it here for me was doing so poor technically job that I had other problems then working system per se.

first example, when I had my car installed with autogas, came the day to pick it up. I went there and during the take-over, I smelled gas in cabin. ok, back in waiting room for few hours, problem sorted out. this things should not be happening!

second example, mechanic installed hot water lines in the very narrow space between engine and the car's body, plus adding one joint with the Schelne (metal strap). so guess what, when engine was running, there was relative movement between the parts, Schelne started eating the rubber, hot water under pressure found its way out and I got indication of engine overheating.

in few more areas the pipe routing was so poorly done, that other mechanic in AR service was asking was I doing this job or some other amateur!?!?!? after several iterations on complaints and repairs under guarantee, last time I went there the boss told me that they fired their mechanic, because lately they were mostly doing repairs of the installations than the installations themself.

back to autogas itself. on highways I have noticed that oil temp goes bit up, but nothing that would worry me. on gasoline, it would normally staying at 90 deg C, while on autogas was running at around 100 deg C.

but in the city it was able to heat up quicker, especially if you are in the stop and go in fully congested streets. again, that should be normally corrected with the fan operating, but due to the bad installation, guess that hot water under pressure found its way out!

for that reason I thought that adding additional radiator or increasing the capacity of the current one would have done the job.

since I made 100k KM on that car, both guarantees expired, I knew that I had troublesome installation and got chance to get the current baby, I decided to sell that car!

still think that some bit more educated mechanic with experience could have tuned the system good.

the system on the car was BRS sequent, meaning that it was 1 of 4 or 1 of 5 injections still done with gasoline (to run fuel through direct injectors) and the rest was done using Autogas with extra injectors.

but, both BRC and Vialle have developed now fully direct injection systems, using most of the parts from original gasoline system. The only change is, of course beside the new tank and additional ECU, flange on the low pressure fuel pump on the gasoline reservoir. everything else is OEM from the car. the problem is that JTS engines are not any more in production and are for the cars that stoped producing in 2011. so, no business case for BRC and Vialle if they need to give guarantee on their products :shoot:

since system is so small impact on the car fuel system, ECU is more less standard, programmable unit and even pump is standard (Bosch?) part, one just need to spend some time tuning the program!

that is why I said that we should mollest the Vialle and BRC demanding that they tune their systems for our cars, since still lot of them on the streets, meaning lot of money waiting to be collected.
 
#56 ·
Guys, i'm soo sad after looking for any kind of solution to this problem! Only if they could make it work as smooth as on a busso engine for example.... im getting a 159 Q4 on the moment :D ... I've been asking around , and for now im getting a big NO about the installation. TBI and VW (TSI TFSI) have indeed already options to choose from.. Anyway, i can't complain, since the busso is running pretty nice on LPG for now :).
 
#59 · (Edited)
Wow, this is what i've been looking for! Yes, spoke to guy who installed BRC systems (still does brc official installs for wales, i think llandudno :Arwel Parry Motorsports), and they released BRC system for JTS, then after they got results from 'endurance' tests 100,000miles, they found 'particulates in combustion chamber' so recalled system, saying valve seat recession. Had installed a few systems onto JTSs and never heard any problems from them, 'maybe they were sold on or whatever'. Yes he was saying about the lean-burn principle and stoichiometric.... Also found lpgwales.com who have installed AC Stag and Romano lpg vapour DI systems and then also found that Emer do a system too (Tinley-tech). All lpg ECUs, apart from AC Stag, are based on AEB3000A ECU. LPGWALES said happy to install again, and have config files. Want to fit AEB3000A derivative to my 2002/3 2.0 JTS 156, as have BRC system on my V6 Audi A4, and loving it. 49.9p/l at local petrol station!!
Any advice greatly appreciated.
 
#62 ·
think that Flashlube should be added in order to save the valve seats. This means buying that re-fill bottle from time to time. Need to check how much this costs and adds on the overall costs.

still, with price 0.42EUR per litre, LPG is still extremely interesting! especially since I would like to keep my car for long period of time :biglaugh:
 
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#60 ·
Additional JTS info.

Stumbled across this: Alfa Romeo - Off Topic - Pigeon Watch Forums
"Alfa abandoned twin spark plugs in favour of directly injecting the fuel air mixture to the combustion chamber, running at lean burn to 1,500rpm and a stoichiometric 14.7:1 air:fuel mixture thereafter."
Thought it might help with the LPGing, but according to the BRC installer, you can only realy tell if it's lean burn if you hook it up and look for tell-tale signs of if it's LB or Stoich.
This says it's both!
 
#61 ·
Stumbled across this: Alfa Romeo - Off Topic - Pigeon Watch Forums
"Alfa abandoned twin spark plugs in favour of directly injecting the fuel air mixture to the combustion chamber, running at lean burn to 1,500rpm and a stoichiometric 14.7:1 air:fuel mixture thereafter."
Thought it might help with the LPGing, but according to the BRC installer, you can only realy tell if it's lean burn if you hook it up and look for tell-tale signs of if it's LB or Stoich.
This says it's both!
look, lean burn in theory should not be a problem, since it is ment to be running in that mode bellow 1500 rpms. above that revs JTS is running "normal" mixture.

now, when in stop/go mode in congested cities, long intervals of idling (<1500 rpms) is regular. plus, no proper cooling (due to moving of the vehicle) and the heat of the summer and surrounding vehicles, all summs up.

thanks for information on the Wales offering, will check them :beer:
 
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