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159 TI Suspension Upgrade Advice

112K views 310 replies 58 participants last post by  Old Engineer 
#1 · (Edited)
Any chance of some opinion / advice on an investment path please?

I have a cracked spring (common fault I know) so am using this as an opportunity to improve the stock suspension.

Option 1)

Eibach ProSystem suspension kit
around 500 EUR on Alfisti

Option 2)

Eibach-Bilstein Suspension Kit "Sportiva" (B6 Sport Shocks & ProKit Springs also known as the B12 Pro Kit I beleive)
around 649 EUR on Alfisti

Option 3)

As per Option 2 but with Eibach Sportline Springs.
50mm drop & harder ride.

around the same price as option 2

I don't want to step up into the coilover brackit as the cost jump is too much to swallow right now, and I have had feedback that it can be too harsh for a daily driver.

My requirements are:

  • It needs to feel firmer than the stock TI setup but not be a bone breaker
  • It needs to be not much lower than the TI is right now on 19's as clearance is useful!
  • I can do upwards of 1000 miles in a week sometimes and I dont want to get to my cleints looking like I have just run the nurburg.

Simple really.

Ideas?
 
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#227 ·
Quinn, if you're out there, any chance you could measure from the top of the wheel rim to bottom of arch for me. I just want to see what a basic height is on 19" rims so I can work out the max height I'll be able to get on the KW's.
 
#213 ·
Hello,
Do you have any update concerning this suspension set?
I'm really interested, as recently I have bought a 159 Q4 TI. I am surprised that it does not feel much firmer than Brera or 159 without TI. But this turns out to be a problem- as the car is lower, but suspension is not that stiff, it scrapes quite often on rough roads :censored:
I suspect that the OEM suspension is worn out, so I have started to look for possible upgrades, but maybe I should just put the standard Lusso springs.
 
#215 ·
OK, a bit of a hijack now, my Brera has broken one of the rear springs, I replaced one last year with an original I got hold of. I wish I had bought a set of springs and done the lot but hindsight is marvellous. What is the concencious of opinion regarding a change. I don't particularly want to harden the ride or lower the car as it tends to get loaded up when it get used. Any suggestions, prices seem to vary, are there any to avoid?
 
#225 ·
I suggest starting at post #1 and working your way through as its all detailed in this thread quite nicely. OEM vs After Market, drop vs standard height and spring rates under load vs normal. lots of other users experiences and different set-ups to compare.
 
#221 ·
B4 is oEM setup, b6 is 15-20% taughter, and b8 has a shortened piston (30-60mm drop),
If you have the pro-kit springs think the b6 will be fine

B12 is simply the kit with springs and b6's
B14/16 are the coil over kits


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#226 ·
You know those mornings you wake up early and lay in bed browsing the net? Well I just got my monthly itch and thought id search KW V3 and ended up buying a set for £800. They're from Germany and as much as the webpage translater can show, the Coilovers are B stock, never fitted, but possibly without original packaging and light scratches. If all is hunky dory, that's a right price!

I may well be screwing the car up putting these on as I don't really have any problems as such, It's partially just that I have to scratch this itch, always wanted to see if they live up to the hype. Also, I just want my suspension to push back a bit more on fast bends.

The B4's and Eibachs on the front and the custom springs on the rear are very comfy at speed and pretty good around town, but I'm hoping the KWs just have a bit quicker control of rough surfaces at low speed. I'm going to shoot KW an email about the rear springs, I have to put 4 mountain bikes on a tow bar and 4 lads in the car for a trip down to Les Arcs, need to mKe sure the springs will suffice.

Having them delivered to work to avoid domestic conflict:biglaugh:
 
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#233 ·
This is on KWs, I'm praying he's on max drop at 70mm, but even raising it 35mm, is still goin to be fairly slammed.
 

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#241 ·
Not that I want them, but can anyone explain the pros and cons of having these http://youtu.be/JI9kW8zcAlo. I would've thought you'd get some harshness not having any of the thick rubber seen on top mounts. Are they for camber adjustment?

I've emailed KW about the possibility of having some longer springs made to get somewhere around 15-40mm adjustment. Long shot for a one off, but I suppose if I get no joy, I could send the originals off to coilspringsuk and see if they can help out.
 
#242 ·
The puppies just arrived:biglaugh: I feel sick I'm so excited.
They may be B Stock but they were packaged as factory and everything is present, so i reckon I did well. The only thing they may be different to brand spankers is that i have to use a separate knob to adjust the damping whereas on newer models (maybe not Alfa) they have integrated adjustment wheels.
 

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#243 ·
Looking good, so you fitting these this weekend then?;)
Yeah you don't need those solid top mounts on a road car unless your really serious about eliminating all the rubber in the suspension and turning it into a 1.6 ton go-cart and sending your wheels square on pot holes!

You cant adjust camber/caster with those plates, but even if they were our double wishbone suspension isn't adjusted for camber/caster in the top mount anyway, your thinking of McPherson strut suspension.

As long as your std top mounts are in good condition, just stick with those.

The numbers on those springs: 60-200 and 90-200 I believe from looking at your picture?
Well the first number is spring rate in Newtons/mm, the second number is length. So both are 200mm.
If you did want to use a longer spring you would ask for 60-250 for example for the rears.

If you want to go alittle higher spring rate in the rear I have run a 70N/mm linear spring before and its about the limit for comfort vs performance. It may surprise many that you actually don't feel high front spring rates through your backside/spine as much as having a high rear spring rate. High rear spring rates are only for the track not pot holed public roads...don't ask me how I know!lol

hth :)
 
#244 ·
Hi James,

I have to go up to Lancaster this weekend so can't play on the car unfortunately. All my top mounts are only a few months old, but I'm going to buy new ones so I can leave the Eibach/B4 struts made up ready for a quick change should I have made a mistake with these KWs:biglaugh:. It looks like the KW springs won't need compressing to put the top mounts on, so fronts I can swap without touching spring compressors. I enjoy doing the fronts, but rears drove me mad and scared the sheet out of me with how much the spring needed compressing.

You're correct on the spring rates. I've had some quick replies from Alan at KW, his suggestion is to try them and when loading up, stiffen the damping up. If that doesn't work then they can help out further. Pete did say the springs are fairly thin, but they are more so than I thought they would be.

I've a lot of travel coming up, so it could be May by the time I get round to it, actually I'll never resist that long!

Want to get the brakes sorted at the same time, so Ned if you're out there, are you still doing that deal on PF pads supplied and fitted with high temp fluid and braided lines?
 
#245 ·
Just having a read off the instructions, very refreshing to see good instructions. Apparently max approx height is 370mm from axle centre to wheel arch, tho is pretty much where I am now, but can anyone confirm that with the axle to wheel arch would be a constant measure regardless of wheel size? I can't get figure it out:biglaugh:
 
#246 ·
May!! only kidding mate, I couldn't wait that long;)

Yes interesting KW said adjust damping, this won't stop the rear sagging under weight, but would slow down the speed they hit the bump stops...eek;).
I'd wind the rear spring purch up something like 15mm (as a guesstimate) just for your trip and that will raise the rear about 20-25mm due to the rear shock position on the lower arm.

If you can't get the rear to sit normal with all the bikes etc and it still sags down on the bump stops, then you'l need higher rear rate springs.
 
#248 ·
James, I wonder what your thoughts are here. This is a quote from a KW tech- "The idea of compressing or de-compressing the spring by turning the spring perch is wrong! Here’s an example to clarify: imagine you put an adjustable height chair on a weight scale. You sit on it and increase the height – will you get heavier? Of course you see a pre-compression of the spring when the shock is lying in front of you but this situation will not appear in the car. The change of spring rate and pre-compression only starts when the maximum drop is reached and you keep winding up. Going back to our example, once you reach the roof with your head and keep turning up, your weight on the scale will increase as you get compressed"

Taking this into account along with your earlier suggestion of winding the spring up more and also the KW instruction that the max height I should wind the spring perch up to is 195mm. I would have about another 50mm of unused thread, so do you reckon if I were to wind up more than the 195mm, that I'd actually change the spring rate thus making A- the back end sit higher and B- stiffening up the spring, so maybe an ideal situation for when carrying heavy loads?
 
#249 · (Edited)
Alex chill man. :thumbup:

Just read this coilover worry thread. My god firstly what a deal. Secondly keep your knickers on they will be fine. Just adjust them higher when you take your heavy load to france. Although taking a GT with all those bikes and a full car is nuts brother? As KW have mentioned you can adjust the rebound and stiffness. Very handy when dealing with increased weight in the car. Longer stiffer springs will F'k up the ride quality and make the rear skittish. Please don't do it. The kit is designed to work with the spring rate presented.

Make sure you buy some coilover covers for them to protect the threads and bodies from all that winter weather crap. The shock bodies are brilliant quality , and have excellent anti corrosion properties but its always nice to protect the central part and the thread.:yes:

They are the best coilover money can buy for the GT. I think you will love them once properly adjusted. Look forward to your feedback once they are on your beast.

Damien.
 
#250 ·
Hi Damian,

These are for my 159, I'm still utterly smitten with the FSDs and Eibachs on the Gt, so no need to change (yet). I just found an old thread, post #19 http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/358532-159ti-springs-change.htmlwith some estimated Spring rates for Eibach rears and they're about 40 n/mm compared to 60 on the KW. I don't know know if this a straight comparison as Spring lengths are around 10cm different, I get confused here.
Anyway, I went to bed last night ready to get coilspringsuk to make me some longer springs, but if those Spring rates above are a fair comparison, then I ought to be okay. I'm honestly not a nutter:biglaugh:
I'm looking forward to seeing if I can get low speed town driving better and 80mlh cruising more planted- oh wait, I'm gonna need EDC.
 
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#252 ·
Hi Alex

Sorry bud, i always forget you have your gorgeous 159. Well same applies. I think she will be transformed. Changing spring lengths can cause comfort issues. I say this after experience with my eibach pro S kit.

Damien.
 
#251 ·
Hi, yes winding the spring purch up is for height adjustment not to adjust spring rate. If the spring is coil bound with all the weight in the rear then the spring rate needs to be higher, or take some weight out. Yes coil covers are a good idea to keep the grit out more than anything else as the kw's are stainless steel.
As said don't worry for now just wait and see how the std setup is, it's good to chat about options though. :)
 
#254 ·
Spend enough time on the net and one can become quite paranoid:biglaugh: There's plenty out there about rears not holding up too well for domestic use, folk running out of adjustment, buying new springs and as Dan had suggested earlier, fitting spacers.
So it seems KW have already addressed this https://www.ecstuning.com/b-kw-suspension-parts/coil-spring-spacer-30mm-priced-each/65030046~kw/

I believe they come in 10,15,20 or 30mm, I just need to check compatibility, even though my concerns might be pointless, I'd feel happier having a spacer.
 
#255 ·
Well I didn't get too much joy from ecs tuning about the spacers. Nice of them to reply quickly, but apparently they don't have means of measuring the outer and inner diameter of the spacers and they only work with German cars:biglaugh:

I'll put some pics up of the top collar of the coilover. To fit this in the rear top mount, you have to remove the inner core of the Alfa top mount. If I could pick the brains of you engineers out there on the safety aspect of what I'm thinking.

Have a spacer machined so it's effectively the same as the KW purple one but 30mm deep as in the drawing. i assume aluminium would be strong enough ?
 

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#259 ·
I know what you mean about coilovers Damian, it's just I kind of want them so I can jack the ride up rather than going down:biglaugh:but I only really want them for what will hopefully be an excellent damper and Spring combo. The fact I can fine tune the rebound so much is also a massive plus, I've not seen anything else available for the 159 that comes near this level of adjustability. I can't see me messing with the bump, but it's nice to know it's there, I just need to figure out what the f it does :biglaugh:

I've just returned from the local machining shop and they're going to knock me up some replacement spacers in Acetal/Delrin. I'll get about 26mm less lowering on the rear, so approx 10-40mm adjustability from a lusso ride height. Yeah they might not be needed, but I'm the sort that would rather say I shouldn't have bothered rather than I wish I had.
 
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#260 ·
Al, the more I read about what you want to achieve, the more I'm thinking you should put a couple of coil over air bags on the back.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-U...id=100005&rk=3&rkt=5&mehot=lo&sd=141548913128
these just replace your springs, would need to check your shock tubing is less than 54mm.
They will extend up to 240mm which I think will be plenty.
You don't have to install air pumps and cylinders in the boot, they can be pumped up (slowly) with a tire pump and check valve positioned where you want.
Arrive at destination with high rear load, unload (car shoots up) then just bleed some air off to restore ride height in seconds and off you go. :thumbup:
 
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