F1 2007 Season

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by jamieboy

For the record, I don't think there is much wrong with a Ferrari employee having a dossier of information relevant to his job.

Errrhhh...but don't you think there's something wrong with that employee giving that information to a competitor???

[Kevin Slegg]

Hamilton doesn't appear to want the BMW and Williams disqualified

BBC

[BigFoot]

Remember Kev, Hamilton comes from the Ron Dennis School of Publicly Correct Speaking!

After he lost it in China he said "I am now stronger than ever". After he blew it in Brazil, LH went on to say "It's ok, I am young".

Don't believe everything you read

[Kevin Slegg]

But at the end of the day he's a fantastic driver and not a spoilt whinging cry-baby like Alonso. Seeing LH and KR racing next year will be exciting I'm sure

[BigFoot]

Agreed. He is an incredible talent. Hopefully he'll move to Ferrari at some stage

[jamieboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

Errrhhh...but don't you think there's something wrong with that employee giving that information to a competitor???

Yes I do. But that was the offence - the misuse of something that he was entitled to have. In contrast to AlfaLincs assertion that he stole it.

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by jamieboy

Yes I do. But that was the offence - the misuse of something that he was entitled to have. In contrast to AlfaLincs assertion that he stole it.

Hmmmm...didn't he dishonestly appropriate that dossier with the intention to permanently deprive Ferrari of it by giving it to McLaren? That is theft. He might have had authorisation to have the dossier at Ferrari's premises, I'm not clear if he had authorisation to have it at home; and he definitely didn't have authorisation to give it to McLaren

[BigFoot]

Why are we talking about this now guys?

We have a Ferrari double championship win to celebrate

[jamieboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

Hmmmm...didn't he dishonestly appropriate that dossier with the intention to permanently deprive Ferrari of it

No. As far as I'm aware, sending a copy of some data to someone does not permanently deprive the legal owner of that data. It might make the data less useful, but is that the same thing? I'm no lawyer, so I don't know.

Not sure there's much point getting into another lengthy discussion about it, to be honest.

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by jamieboy

No. As far as I'm aware, sending a copy of some data to someone does not permanently deprive the legal owner of that data. It might make the data less useful, but is that the same thing? I'm no lawyer, so I don't know.

Not sure there's much point getting into another lengthy discussion about it, to be honest.

The physical copy of the documents, as I understand it, were Ferrari property and hence he was permanently depriving Ferrari of those physical documents; that is theft regardless whether the intellectual property remains in Ferrari's possession.

The intellectual property contained in those physical documents would be a copyright breach and is actionable in the civil courts.

If he merely only copied the designs onto his own CD then there is probably only a copyright infringement. But as I understand it he had physical documents; belonging to Ferrari in his possession. It doesn't matter how many copies of the documents Ferrari had if the catula copy he had still belonged to Ferrari

[dpat]

Hamilton has said he doesn't want to be made WC after a court room battle - good on him, anyway even if the other cars are disqualified there is every possibility that he won't be moved up the order.

[jamieboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

The physical copy of the documents, as I understand it, were Ferrari property and hence he was permanently depriving Ferrari of those physical documents; that is theft regardless whether the intellectual property remains in Ferrari's possession.

OK, if there was no loss of IP, then are you saying he (Stepney, a Ferrari employee who was entitled to have possession of this data as part of his day-to-day job) was guilty of 'stealing' 780 sheets of A4 paper, and quite possibly a binder? Hang him.

[Gary Slegg]

Originally Posted by Alfettafan

So much for Ron Dennis not appealing the "spygate" decision for the sake of the sport - he is quite happy now to make F1 a laughing stock and tarnish it's image for good by carrying on with this appeal. He has a short memory - just how many transgressions and how many controversies has his McLaren team been involved in this year alone. Cheats and sore losers, eh Ron, what a class act your and your organisation are...

Sorry, but I disagree - just because this race was the championship decider doesn't mean that transgression should be treated differently.

[Gary Slegg]

Originally Posted by BigFoot

You seem to forget Monaco Gary. Crybaby Hamilton kicked up the fuss that ultimately cracked the team spirit and balance

I think what you meant to write is "That fantastic driver Hamilton quite rightly highlighted the fact that his team mate had requested special treatment"

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by jamieboy

OK, if there was no loss of IP, then are you saying he (Stepney, a Ferrari employee who was entitled to have possession of this data as part of his day-to-day job) was guilty of 'stealing' 780 sheets of A4 paper, and quite possibly a binder? Hang him.

Yes, just the same as when someone walks out of a shop with a book they haven't paid for.

Of course, there was a loss of IP - which may have been more serious to Ferrari and the sport; but that doesn't mean there wasn't a Section 1 offence

[Gary Slegg]

Originally Posted by BigFoot

Why are we talking about this now guys?

We have a Ferrari double championship win to celebrate

Don't remind us

[BigFoot]

Originally Posted by Gary Slegg

Sorry, but I disagree - just because this race was the championship decider doesn't mean that transgression should be treated differently.

Perhaps, then again Ferrari didn't appeal the stewards' decision to fine LH $15k instead of a more severe punishment.

[Gary Slegg]

Originally Posted by BigFoot

Perhaps, then again Ferrari didn't appeal the stewards' decision to fine LH $15k instead of a more severe punishment.

That's becasue that was the first time it happened, so it has now set the precedent for that offence. As far as fuel is concerned though, there's been a number of incidences throughout the history of F1, and so Williams and BMW should be punished based upon those precedents

[jamieboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

Yes, just the same as when someone walks out of a shop with a book they haven't paid for.

Totally different - if you walk out of shop with a book you haven't paid for, you're not entitled to have it. In legal terms, you have appropriated it dishonestly.

If you have a technical role with a Formula 1 team, you are entitled to be in possession of technical information belonging to that team and pertinent to your role. Stepney didn't acquire the information dishonestly.

He abused his position of trust, by giving something that he was entitled to have to someone else who was not entitled to have it, contrary to the interests of the people who willingly and knowingly gave it to him in the first place. I don't think that is stealing, though.

[Kevin Slegg]

As stated above, my understanding is that he wasn't entitled to have those documents at his home; and he wasn't entitled to 'give' documents not belonging to him to someone else.

If a shop assistant, who looks after 'fiction books' walks out the shop; takes that book home and then gives it to their friend knowing it won't be returned to the shop are you saying you don't think that is theft?

[BigFoot]

Guys, don't make me use my new Super Powers

Or perhaps, make me ...

[jamieboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

If a shop assistant, who looks after 'fiction books' walks out the shop; takes that book home and then gives it to their friend knowing it won't be returned to the shop are you saying you don't think that is theft?

If you're a sales director, you might send an email to one of your salesmen telling them that you're going to make a push for more sales in Bedford, detailing which items you'll be selling and for how much.

If he forwards that email to one of your competitors, has he stolen it? Or has he simply abused your trust and misused something he was entitled to have?


edit: sorry, BF - I was struggling to compose this masterpiece and missed your post. This will be my last word on the subject...



...probably.

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by jamieboy

If you're a sales director, you might send an email to one of your salesmen telling them that you're going to make a push for more sales in Bedford, detailing which items you'll be selling and for how much.

If he forwards that email to one of your competitors, has he stolen it? Or has he simply abused your trust and misused something he was entitled to have?


edit: sorry, BF - I was struggling to compose this masterpiece and missed your post. This will be my last word on the subject...



...probably.

That may be a breach of confidentiality; however in the situation we're discussing Stepney didn't just forward e-mails to a 3rd Party; as I understand it he took a physical document belonging to another

[jamieboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

That may be a breach of confidentiality; however in the situation we're discussing Stepney didn't just forward e-mails to a 3rd Party; as I understand it he took a physical document belonging to another

As before, hang him for stationery theft.

I'll risk BigFoot's wrath one last time....

Taking the salesman scenario from before, if you (his sales director) write out a memo describing your future sales tactics and hand it to one of your salesmen to use, and he takes the memo home and later physically gives it to one of your competitors, has he stolen it? Or has he simply abused your trust and misused something he was entitled to have?


Anyway, F1 2007, eh? What a season! Slightly murky constructor's championship, deserving win in the drivers.

[BigFoot]

So, let me get this straight. If I go to a bookshop, get hired as a salesperson, take a book from the adult fantasy section, email a buddy of mine that works for a competitor bookshop (a chain presumably? Perhaps American??) and bring him the book, then …











… the FIA will disqualify McLaren from the 2008 F1 championship????



Now, where is the nearest bookshop???