Rear Wheel Drive

Toronto Spider · #1 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

Reading the threads for the past week or so has left me baffled. There is so much discussion about rear wheel drive, and what it's like to drive a car that is being pushed rather than pulled.

Now I know there are a bunch of youngsters on the board who have only known front wheel drive, but I don't think that the kiddies are in the majority here. I'm sure there must be people who came of age when RWD was still commonplace, but the posts on the threads don't seem to reflect my assumption.

So once and for all let's set the record straight.

Hoygaard · #2 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

Well Toronto

I guess it's an european phenomenon. Euro thrash drive small hatch backs with FWD. Peeps with good taste and money drive huge sedans with RWD.

It's as simple as that.

BTW. I still miss my crap '77 Alfetta 2000 GTV. Those Dell'Orto's growling, and me struggling to keep the rear in place on tight corners. Weeehaaa

-- Hoygs

THROTTLEMAN · #3 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

Well Toronto, some of funniest cars I drove were rwd but then... Lars said it all.

Banflu · #4 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

i'm a little kiddy wink but ironically I drive a RWD daily wink .. and a FWD on special occasions

(the 147)

I wish the 147 was RWD as well, i really hate it when she understeers, and I really feel its "unfair", so to speak, that I cannot push the rear end out in a corner with it, as I do with mine. (whereas I rarely do that in mine, since there is not much point in doing so, damn boring steering

)

Toronto Spider · #5 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

Hoys,

laughing That was a great explanation.

Seriously, I'm not saying that RWD is common here. The vast majority of cars sold are FWD, at least they are now. I however, am ancient enough to remember a time when everybody had RWD vehicles in the driveway. I guess I'm working on the assumption that Europe was that way too back in the dark ages.

Now when I learned to drive, it was on RWD vehicles with V6s and V8s. My first car was FWD. I've been going back and forth since. Honestly I barely give it a second thought about whether I'm driving something that pushes or something that pulls. I've managed to slide both in the winter and hit curbs.

These days, I'm more comfortable with FWD in the winter, but that's just because my current daily driver is FWD. I still have absolutely no concerns about jumping behind the wheel of a RWD vehicle and taking it out in the snow. (Actually I think the biggest comfort I get is in driving a manual in the winter over an automatic. I know the driving professionals tell me that there shouldn't be a difference, but I'm not a professional.

)

Other than that, since I don't try to push any car to its limits -- I drive on the street, not on the track -- I don't spend hours trying to hang the back end out when taking RWD around the corners. I don't need to ask for trouble. Trouble finds me easily enough. wink
--Toronto

THROTTLEMAN · #6 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Banflu:
that I cannot push the rear end out in a corner with it, as I do with mine.<hr /></blockquote>Ever used the handbreak, Pat? wink

Banflu · #7 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

in the alfa? dont know, dont think so. i've done some handbrake turns in the bro's Corsa tho

still its no match for power oversteer hugo. with the handbrake you are braking! whereas in a RWD you would be applying MORE power into the corner... and losing traction.. slowly

or this i LOVEE.... approaching a corner in 3rd or 4th... press clutch, and put in 2nd gear. start to turn around the corner; at mid-corner, or a little bit before, release clutch, and apply throttle

you MIGHT have to give it just a liitttle bit of opposite lock then

tasty

selespeed · #8 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

I love RWD, but I also realize that you can easily loose control (if the car in question has enough power to oversteer)

Toronto Spider · #9 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

Almost any RWD car has enough power to oversteer -- at least any RWD car I have ever driven.

Mind you I haven't tried putting the spider into a situation where oversteet would occur, and I don't plan on doing it any time soon. wink

Too much time was spent putting the car back together, and I don't want to see it in pieces again.
--Toronto

bazza · #10 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

I said yes to the first question, but I've only ever driven RWD's in track situations, ergo I've only ever driven one like a complete hooligan

This probably biases my opinion of the differences between RWD and FWD.

THROTTLEMAN · #11 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Banflu:
in the alfa? dont know, dont think so. i've done some handbrake turns in the bro's Corsa tho

<hr /></blockquote>The thing is, the Corsa is lighter car so, it's so much easy to do it with the hand break. Just like I used to do with my Y. Approaching a tight corner, engaging 2nd gear, pull the throttle and actuating the hand break. 90º curves were so easy as eat chocolate.

The Alfa needs more space and has much more rubber... expensive rubber. wink

Banflu · #12 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

yep true that.
Also the handbrake on the Alfa is pretty lame IMO. like most (if not all) italian cars. in the corsa its so much easier to handbrake turn. just a little pull and it turns

on the Alfa there is much more feel, in the handbrake, but you have to really yank it upwards if you want to do something! i'm always afraid i'm gonna break it, and this is probably why i've never done anything similar

that said, it has oversteered slightly a few times, when cornering hard. now that felt great!

Ant · #13 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

I've driven almost no RWD cars. However, my dad owns a Grand Cherokee, and it does feel nice, but I've never taken it near the limits, and I won't, at least not on purpose.

#14 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

Okay...here's a youngster who has driven a BMW once.
It was a loan car which i drove for the duration (1 week)when my old Alfa 33 1.3 (RIP) was in the garage.
I don't own a RWD myself.

Saluti sportive, Arjan.

PS. i'm thinking of buying a 75 V6 in the near future. wink

Toronto Spider · #15 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bazza:
I said yes to the first question, but I've only ever driven RWD's in track situations, ergo I've only ever driven one like a complete hooligan

This probably biases my opinion of the differences between RWD and FWD.<hr /></blockquote>So does this mean you got married in the middle of a race track, or did you happen to get the rare front wheel drive version of the Aston? wink
--Toronto

THROTTLEMAN · #16 (**Post Link**) 08-12-2003

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Banflu:
on the Alfa there is much more feel, in the handbrake, but you have to really yank it upwards if you want to do something!<hr /></blockquote>I don't think you have to pull it so hard. Maybe you need to check it...

gotcha · #17 (**Post Link**) 09-12-2003

I have driven mostly FWD cars in my life. VW, Honda and now Alfa. But now I have also the possibility to drive my fathers Mercedes 270CDI. And it's a difference. I dont like when my 147 starts to understeer in curves. But I think it's not only because of the FWD. It looks like to me it has a lot of weight in front and the back is short and light. I dont like to say it, but the mercedes is more balanced. (FWD Honda accord was also more ballanced because of the weight in back) I tried to play with in on empty parking place, but the ESP steps in. Also if you turn it off, it works. Later, but is still there, so it's not a good car to fool with. But in general I wouldn't like RWD in my 147 as it's too short and light. I think it would do more harm then good. 156 is different question. But 4WD is an option. I read, that in july 2004 will alfa launch 147jtd 4x4 and also 156 4x4. This could be interesting.

bazza · #18 (**Post Link**) 09-12-2003

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Toronto Spider:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by bazza:
I said yes to the first question, but I've only ever driven RWD's in track situations, ergo I've only ever driven one like a complete hooligan

This probably biases my opinion of the differences between RWD and FWD.<hr /></blockquote>So does this mean you got married in the middle of a race track, or did you happen to get the rare front wheel drive version of the Aston? wink
--Toronto<hr /></blockquote>Oooo. You're sharp wink
You're right of course, how could I forget about my beloved Aston?

I never really pushed the Aston hard enough to provoke anything, so from my experience it was quite neutral. Obviously that isn't really the case, but I certainly never had the tail out. The £3000 excess on the insurance made me a bit careful (although, to be honest, I'd be very upset with myself for damaging such a piece of art anyway).
The most I had was a bit of tyre squeal from the back pulling out of a junction a couple of times.

bazza · #19 (**Post Link**) 09-12-2003

Actually, there was one thing I was very careful with: when overtaking, I always pulled out, pointed it in the right direction, then accelerated.
With over 500 thoroughbred stallions roaring through the rear wheels, I tended to think steering and accelerating at the same time was a bit of a no-no

Hoygaard · #20 (**Post Link**) 09-12-2003

Bazza,

You have deprived yourself of the uttermost joy of driving a RWD vehicle. Id Est OVERSTEER én massê. Simply turn the the steering wheel a slight tad in the direction you want to travel, floor it and then countersteer/ease of the throttle in order to travel in the desired direction. Trust me. On lookers might love you or hate you. The FWD 155'ers hate you allready, but hey, you allready know that.

Cheers

-Hoy

bazza · #21 (**Post Link**) 09-12-2003

I know Hoygs, it really upsets me when I think about it.
I drove the caterham, the escort cossie RWD, the Apache and the Pilot like a complete hooligan thoughm which cheers me up a bit

Plastic Pig · #22 (**Post Link**) 09-12-2003

I've done rear-wheel, front-wheel and no-wheel drive (windsurfer, Sea King helicopter and Boeing 747 amongst the latter).

I guess only the Alfa bits are relevant:
I've owned a 33TI, 33 16V, GTV TS, GTV V6, Bertone, 75 & GTV6. You develop a style in each but, generally with FWD cars, you turn in late, turn sharply, get the nose pointing in the right direction as quickly as possible and boot it. With rear wheel drive, you'll be turning in earlier, getting on the power much more quickly, sliding round the corner and balancing the oversteer on the throttle.

In normal, dry road conditions, I'm pushed to tell the difference (especially since torque steer became a thing of the past) and a modern Alfa will grip like buggery and get you round a corner even if you **** it up (and I often do). However, you'll know when you get it right in a 75 or Bertone: it'll tell you and you'll fly out the far end of the curve. Ultimately, the 156/GTV etc. will tell you when you get it wrong, but it's no fun swapping ends quicker than you can say "lift-off oversteer". I can vouch for that. Unfortunately, lifting when you've overcooked it, is the most natural thing to do and I have to conclude that RWD is my weapon of choice for the track day.

drew · #23 (**Post Link**) 11-12-2003

bah....give me rwd any day.....had a 33 as my first car...now have a 75 v6.....and the joys of power oversteer are immense.....went thru an empty 3-road spaghetti junction on the way to work this morning at 120 kph, full opposite lock, both rear tyres leaving a rooster tail of tyre smoke behind em...bloody lovely...

i push my rwd to its limits all the time....the roads i drive on allow that tho....

such is the benfeit of living in very close proximity to dirt/gravel roads that opposite lock and looking sideways out the side windows to see where you are goin becomes second nature...

Nigel S · #24 (**Post Link**) 11-12-2003

RWD is great provided you drive whilst wearing rose tinted glasses, then the "handling" means fun tail slides and never coming off the road. If you take the glasses off, you'll find yourself in a ditch on a frosty night checking to make sure that your wife and kids aren't hurt.

Pascs · #25 (**Post Link**) 11-12-2003

Cars these days are designed to be cheap to produce and safe.

FWD fits that bill. There are fewer parts in a FWD car than RWD or 4WD and FWD is easier to drive without any driver ability.

Most RWD cars now are produced by more expensive manufactures and are tamed by electronic controls to make them safe for less able drivers.

My first car was a RWD 1973 Mk1 Ford Escort when most of my friends were driving FWD cars.

There are not many RWD cars produced these days that I would want to buy or alternatively could afford to buy – so FWD it is but I would rather a RWD car.

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