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Old 17-09-08
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Idea ePer & eLearn

I know there are numerous links to ePer (usually the old versions though) but are there any links to the eLearn system that gives specs and solutions to the various problems we face

Would be great
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso View Post
I know there are numerous links to ePer (usually the old versions though) but are there any links to the eLearn system that gives specs and solutions to the various problems we face

Would be great
Are there no copyright / licensing problems with this kind of thing?
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

You mean like this:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...k-fitting.html (DIY Shock Fitting)
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
Are there no copyright / licensing problems with this kind of thing?
Quite possibly, but for personal use

Originally Posted by gwales View Post

Exactly except my PC doesn't do RAR files
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

I have it on cd (as do many others). Surely there must be a way of uploading it onto a site (not suggesting AO just in case there's a copyright issue) but perhaps onto someone blog (or an annonymous blog). HAvent we got any techie types on here who could advise on this sort of thing?
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso View Post
Quite possibly, but for personal use
Not sure I'm with you - are you saying that you think the license allows multiple copies to be taken for personal use, or are you saying that you're not bothered whether it's licensed or not, or something else?

I've no idea what the license terms and conditions are, but I'd be surprised if it's freeware.
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso View Post
Quite possibly, but for personal use




Exactly except my PC doesn't do RAR files
Ah yes, but 7Zip does.

Check out the rest of the thread as id took a bit or wrestling to get it on a CD without the correct software. All freeware though
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
Not sure I'm with you - are you saying that you think the license allows multiple copies to be taken for personal use, or are you saying that you're not bothered whether it's licensed or not, or something else?

I've no idea what the license terms and conditions are, but I'd be surprised if it's freeware.
I am sure you are correct in that Alfa did not design this to be consumed by IT literate web users but then there are dudes trying to clear £5 on ebay for the software on a disk. If Alfa wanted to take issue would they not have started there some time ago ?

If anyone asks, you don't know me .... right
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by gwales View Post
Ah yes, but 7Zip does.

Check out the rest of the thread as id took a bit or wrestling to get it on a CD without the correct software. All freeware though
Have downloaded the 7zip program and am in the process of downloading 145mb GT manual
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Maybe Alfaowner could look at getting a proper, legitimate, licensed copy and restricting access to Club Members?

Just seems to jar slightly that AO is trying to get ARUK to take it seriously with things like the tyre wear problems, 2.2 engine maps etc. and yet is still happy to advocate breaking the law (depending on the license) with this type of thing.
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
Maybe Alfaowner could look at getting a proper, legitimate, licensed copy and restricting access to Club Members?

Just seems to jar slightly that AO is trying to get ARUK to take it seriously with things like the tyre wear problems, 2.2 engine maps etc. and yet is still happy to advocate breaking the law (depending on the license) with this type of thing.
That is indeed a good idea I will raise your idea with Ian.

In the meantime, I've scrubbed the download version and have ordered one for our GT off eBay for a fiver inc. postage.
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Old 17-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso View Post
That is indeed a good idea I will raise your idea with Ian.

In the meantime, I've scrubbed the download version and have ordered one for our GT off eBay for a fiver inc. postage.
I bet the eBay one isn't licensed software either, just burnt onto a CD to look professional..
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
I bet the eBay one isn't licensed software either, just burnt onto a CD to look professional..
I typed more or less exactly the same thing, but decided not to post it because I reckoned I was flogging a dead horse.

It's a bit of a bugbear of mine because some of my income comes from licensing, and a couple of my clients make their money from subscription publications.

So I get annoyed when people seem to think that this sort of crime is fine, and I think it's appalling that this site encourages it.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
I typed more or less exactly the same thing, but decided not to post it because I reckoned I was flogging a dead horse.

It's a bit of a bugbear of mine because some of my income comes from licensing, and a couple of my clients make their money from subscription publications.

So I get annoyed when people seem to think that this sort of crime is fine, and I think it's appalling that this site encourages it.

I bought the 156 DTE workshop manual off ebay ... and yes I'm pretty sure it was a copy (and ironically it had "DO NOT COPY" printed on the disk ...)


Where can you buy "official" version of eLearn then?? ... one thing to consider is that Alfa will still make there money by people buying the spare parts from them ...
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
It's a bit of a bugbear of mine because some of my income comes from licensing, and a couple of my clients make their money from subscription publications.
One thing to consider is that if Alfa were that bothered about it then they would put copy protection on the software ... just like all the OBD software you can buy which you have to register with a unique PC identifier ...
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by 156Chris View Post
one thing to consider is that Alfa will still make there money by people buying the spare parts from them ...
And if you're cooking a meal it's OK to steal a recipe book from the supermarket, as long as you buy the ingredients from them. I mean, they're still getting some money from you, aren't they?

Originally Posted by 156Chris View Post
One thing to consider is that if Alfa were that bothered about it then they would put copy protection on the software
...or they could put a copyright notice on it, put restrictions in the license agreement, and hope that people would respect the law.

Just because you can copy it, it doesn't mean it's OK to copy it.

It seems simple to me - if you need something, you pay for it. If you don't think it's worth the money, then you don't need it enough.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that a car manufacturer share with you the details of how serviceable items should be serviced. They have made good money out of the sale and servicing while newer and when a car becomes older they are largely maintained by DIY or Independents and the only business Alfa get are the parts (if you use original).

It is a far cry from software theft and I would not distribute links to copyrighted software. There is no license agreement on the installation or statement within the application (which is just a browser based set of html pages).

They have made no statement about distribution or any effort to prevent it.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
And if you're cooking a meal it's OK to steal a recipe book from the supermarket, as long as you buy the ingredients from them. I mean, they're still getting some money from you, aren't they?

...or they could put a copyright notice on it, put restrictions in the license agreement, and hope that people would respect the law.

Just because you can copy it, it doesn't mean it's OK to copy it.

It seems simple to me - if you need something, you pay for it. If you don't think it's worth the money, then you don't need it enough.

Well Jamie, you've only pulled out the negative points in my post, I'm not saying it is ok to copy software, but if Alfa are dependant upon the income from people buying eLearn then they should at least put a copyright notice or EULA on the software, but there is none (as far as I can tell) ... therefore is the software actually copyrighted? and as such is it illegal to copy/distribute it???
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by gwales View Post
It is a far cry from software theft and I would not distribute links to copyrighted software. There is no license agreement on the installation or statement within the application (which is just a browser based set of html pages).

They have made no statement about distribution or any effort to prevent it.
Originally Posted by 156Chris View Post
they should at least put a copyright notice or EULA on the software, but there is none (as far as I can tell) ... therefore is the software actually copyrighted? and as such is it illegal to copy/distribute it???
The current ones may well be different but the ones linked in the sticky on this forum seem to say "Copyright 2004 Fiat Auto spa, All Rights Reserved."
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

I have checked and checked again and there is no copyright statement anywhere. The interface is built on Internet Explorer and uses Adobe's SVG for vector graphics. The whole thing is built on freely distributable technology so the only thing that may be covered by copyright is the content. The application also includes a download link allowing local copies of content to be stored.

It would seem unlikely that they wish to pursue this as plenty of third party parts manufacturers have unpicked their components and copied the design . Also, the likes of Haynes have been publishing their own service manuals for all manufacturers for years based on unpicking the cars components.

I suppose it is possible that someone has diligently removed the copy protection and statements from this. Do Alfa sell this software? I have never heard of them offering access to it outside of their service network.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by gwales View Post
I have checked and checked again and there is no copyright statement anywhere.
OK, I've just checked again, using the links posted by AlfaJack and Jug in the sticky at the top of this forum.

Jug's links take you straight to the blue ePER screen, with the copyright notice at the bottom.

AlfaJack's link takes you to a welcome screen - when you click 'OK', it takes you to the same blue screen as Jug's links, with the same copyright notice at the bottom.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
The current ones may well be different but the ones linked in the sticky on this forum seem to say "Copyright 2004 Fiat Auto spa, All Rights Reserved."

Do you mean the ePER link? that links to the online ePER website? ... well yes that does have a copyright on it, but then so does the BBC website? so does that mean I'm not allowed to look at what the BBC have published on the internet? As Fiat have published this on the internet then it has to be assumed that anyone is allowed to access it and use the information on it ... what I presume the copyright means in this case is that you cannot copy the data off the website and republish it as your own ...


anyway ... gwales and I have been talking about the eLearn software that is available on CD ... this does not have any "copyright" stuff on it ...


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Last edited by 156Chris; 10-12-08 at 10:47.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by 156Chris View Post
Do you mean the ePER link? that links to the online ePER website? ... well yes that does have a copyright on it, but then so does the BBC website? so does that mean I'm not allowed to look at what the BBC have published on the internet? As Fiat have published this on the internet then it has to be assumed that anyone is allowed to access it and use the information on it ... what I presume the copyright means in this case is that you cannot copy the data off the website and republish it as your own
As far as I'm aware, these links don't point to the Fiat website - they point to a copy of a copyrighted CD, that someone has hosted on the Internet even though they shouldn't have.

Originally Posted by 156Chris View Post
anyway ... gwales and I have been talking about the eLearn software that is available on CD ... this does not have any "copyright" stuff on it ...
Fair enough, if you tell me that the eLearn stuff has no resctrictions on it whatsoever, then I'm sure you've looked into it and you're right. Which begs the question why people don't just phone Alfa direct and ask for a copy.
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
As far as I'm aware, these links don't point to the Fiat website - they point to a copy of a copyrighted CD, that someone has hosted on the Internet even though they shouldn't have.
Ah yes, just done a "whois" and it appears to be hosted in NL!!! (tbh I've never used ePER)

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post

Fair enough, if you tell me that the eLearn stuff has no resctrictions on it whatsoever, then I'm sure you've looked into it and you're right. Which begs the question why people don't just phone Alfa direct and ask for a copy.
Just because it isn't copyrighted doesn't mean that they wont charge and arm and a leg for it ... packaging costs etc ...
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Old 18-09-08
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Re: ePer & eLearn

Originally Posted by jamieboy View Post
As far as I'm aware, these links don't point to the Fiat website - they point to a copy of a copyrighted CD, that someone has hosted on the Internet even though they shouldn't have.

Fair enough, if you tell me that the eLearn stuff has no resctrictions on it whatsoever, then I'm sure you've looked into it and you're right. Which begs the question why people don't just phone Alfa direct and ask for a copy.
You are basically implying that any of us that have this CD are guilty of theft.

I have a new laptop and have just installed Firefox, Thunderbird, Open Office, Picasa and WinAmp. All fantastic software which I value so where should I send my money?

There are lots of software and data products out there that are not subject to cost and have very open licensing. In my opinion it is not the case that you assume a product is copyrighted unless it says otherwise, I believe it is the responsibility of anyone who would hold copyright to make sure that it is clearly stated. On the CD it is not (unless it has been removed).

I am not aware that Alfa sell this package (so they are not losing revenue) and the installer (which is Italian) does not offer a copyright acknowledgement in the traditional manner.

In my opinion, whilst not freely offered by Alfa this is not something on which they are attempting to impose copyright.

If someone shows me different I will happily remove the software - its not that great anyway (rather vague in places).
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