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I love the way car mags view VW products v Alfa's

3K views 43 replies 19 participants last post by  chowley 
#1 ·
I love the bias that motoring journo's give VW products v Alfa products

In this months CAR, the writer says of the new Golf gti

"Over driving the Golf gti upsets the handling balance by inducing excess understeer and destructive ASR/ESP interference. Its much better to keep this car on a long leash, give torque preference over power and maintain a steady flow".

If it was the Giulietta, they would say of the above

"Push the car hard and it loses grip, this car is way off the engineering excellence of a VW Golf gti"
 
#2 ·
It’s been like this since I started reading car mags back in 2000 or so. It’s just marketing money that talks. Not once in their reviews, they ever bring the point about price up. Ever, beside perhaps a tiny footnote. Oh we’ve tested a German car that costs £32k vs an Italian car that costs £25k and guess what, the Italian car has dodgy plastic compared to the German one :roll: :roll: :rant:
 
#3 ·
No no, but the German car never costs 32k. The German car starts at 20k, compared to the Italian car that costs 22k.

Oh, but wait, the German car model we tested with all the extras that are standard in the Italian car actually costs 35k, while the 20k starting price gets you a little rattlebox, but we'll gloss over that. Nothing to see here.
 
#5 ·
Although British car journalists are biased against Alfa's again German Car unfairly, you know that the followings mags are owned by Dennis Publishing....(British Billionaire owner of 1000's of UK titles. E.G: Auto Express, Autocar, Evo, Octane etc etc... Private company is probably on the payroll for BMW, VW, Mercedes Benz etc:

http://www.dennis.co.uk/subscriptions

By the way my 159ti 2.4jtdm 20v 210ps Sportwagon doesn't understeer into hedges either despite running 250hp and 500nm of torque! ?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
#6 ·
Yes, its the options on the germans that really add up.

Browsing around the Porsche showroom in Sheffield a couple of weeks ago, time to kill, we came across a Boxster with some very tasty alloys.
It turns out these were on the options list along with about a million other items that you would get as standard on a slightly lesser marque.
In bog standard form it was £48000, with all the extra kit a whopping £66000 !
 
#7 ·
As a quick comparison I looked at the Giulia Veloce configurator on the UK website.

With all the possible options except the "smoking pack", picking the most expensive option where there's a choice of more than one that excludes the other. That pushed up the price for a Veloce from a starting £37 880 to £48 355. That is about a 28% increase, compared to what you mention for the Porsche that went up by nearly 38%.
 
#8 ·
I think the difference is, the Alfa comes as standard with 90% decent kit, with options you can take or leave... whereas a German car comes in a dire spec' as standard and costs and arm and a leg just to make "nice". Maybe the resentment of having to spend £5000 just to get 17" wheels rather than steelies causes some resentment and leads to the slightly "angry" driving we see.... :bigmouth:


Ralf S.
 
#10 · (Edited)
So I had a quick look at the 718 Boxster on the UK Porsche website.

As standard the 718 Boxster costs £41 739, and specced up with the things that you actually would want or expect it is £69 906. This does not even nearly include all of the things that are offered as extra-cost options, but some things like logos painted everywhere on the car, logos on the tyre valve caps, or the carbon-ceramic brakes are not necessary at all, so I did not include them.

The options that I specced were:

Metallic paint £ 558.00
Black leather interior £ 2,174.00
Bi-Xenon main headlights in black £ 963.00
Keyless entry £ 477.00
ParkAssist (front and rear) with reversing camera £ 1,044.00
Electrically folding exterior mirrors £ 203.00
Painted exterior accessories £ 882.00
Painted roll-over bar £ 344.00
Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) £ 1,922.00
Power steering Plus £ 179.00
Porsche Active Suspension Management (PASM) £ 971.00
Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV) incl. mechanically locking rear diff £ 890.00
Sport Chrono Package including mode switch £ 1,514.00
Sports exhaust system £ 1,530.00
64-litre fuel tank £ 81.00
20-inch Carrera S wheels £ 1,700.00
Wheels painted in satin platinum £ 615.00
Adaptive cruise control including Porsche Active Safe (PAS) £ 1,052.00
Lane Change Assist £ 396.00
Automatically dimming mirrors with integrated rain sensor £ 332.00
HomeLink® (programmable garage door opener) £ 194.00
GT sport steering wheel £ 186.00
Heated multifunction steering wheel £ 315.00
Adaptive Sports seats Plus £ 2,226.00
Two-zone automatic climate control £ 518.00
Seat heating £ 284.00
Seat ventilation £ 632.00
Climate control panel painted £ 365.00
Sports style pedals and footrest £ 122.00
Interior package painted £ 474.00
Storage compartment lid with Porsche Crest £ 155.00
Porsche Crest embossed on headrests £ 138.00
Floor mats with leather edging £ 215.00
Navigation Module £ 1,052.00
Burmester® High-End Surround Sound-System £ 2,663.00
Connect Plus £ 801.00

So that is 67% more than the standard car, and it doesn't even include everything! :yikes:
 
#11 · (Edited)
Well, I used to drive a Giulietta QV and I now drive a VW Golf 7, so I'm qualified to comment on this ;)

My Golf has the unfair advantage of arriving as a Japanese used import, so it cost me about 25% less than the Giulietta at the same age. The new car pricing puts them on par with each other (it's a 1.4TSi Highline, which competes with the basic 1.4 Giulietta TCT).

Except, my 2013 Golf comes standard with a load of features that just aren't there even in the QV version of the 2013 Giulietta, such as DSG/TCT transmission, cylinder deactivation, front radar for active cruise down to a standstill - autonomous braking, camera for lane assist (steering self-correction to keep within lane), Bi-Xenon headlights, auto headlight dip for oncoming traffic, 8" touchscreen navigation with Bluetooth audio streaming, many nice touches to the load area such as folding seats that don't trap the seat belts, good-quality carpet and an adjustable-height boot floor, and let's not forget the rattles and squeaks of the Giulietta's wayward tailgate trim and dashboard grille pieces and cheap-feeling interior door pulls, which prove what the journalists always trot out :) It only takes two or three concurrent rattles and you've got a horrible experience.

Of course, engine/road noise levels are 3dB down and ride quality considerably more cosseting in the Golf than in the Giulietta. More precise steering despite softer suspension, seats are more comfortable, door bins are lined, there's illuminated footwells and door trims, nothing creaks when you touch it, and so on.

Leaving aside all the above features that you could have on a Porsche or a Mercedes (and yes, I have the "climate control panel painted" - piano black), I don't think anyone can appreciate the solidity and quality of the basic car until they actually drive a Golf 7. It moves the game on a long way from the Golf 6 which was current when the Giulietta came out. I used to drive a Mercedes CLS and even that was disappointingly poor-quality compared to the Golf. It really makes you wonder what a 'luxury car' is.

It would be naive to think that the Giulietta matches all the features of the Golf 7... there were improvements in the 2015 models, but even so, there's a load of new-car features still missing and the material quality didn't improve much. So, there's some truth to support the bias. Quality is all about customer expectation! You choose an Alfa Romeo because it's an Alfa Romeo, not because it's better in any particular way...

-Alex
 
#32 ·
I went the other way, from VAG to Alfa so I can chime in with plenty of experience too.

I was a huge VW supporter once but no more, due to plenty of firsthand experience with their cars. For me the biggest difference between VW and Alfa is honesty. And I'm not referring to the diesel scandal but how VW pretends to be what they aren't. Only VW can get away with selling cars that are riddled with factory faults. The last VW I owned, and I'll never buy another, was a Golf 6. I experienced most faults the Golf 6 are famous for including turbo failures at very low mileages, failed DSG boxes and components many times, excessive oil consumption, dodgy electronics, poor performance, amongst others. And let's not forget rattles, God can they rattle. And don't get me started about how VW doesn't stand by its products when things go wrong, every single contact with the dealer was fraught with tension and fighting. Sadly the Golf 7 is no different, it may be built a little better than the Golf 6 but all the factory faults I mentioned above are still present plus new ones like wipers that don't clean the windscreen properly and all sorts of suspension noises. My little birdbrain just can't comprehend how VW can get away with it and why they sell so well.

Now for my GMA TCT and current QV TCT. What went wrong in 6 years? Uhm, nothing. Yes, nothing. The G has "inferior" plastics and build quality so why haven't I had a single rattle in 6 years? All my VW's rattled like buckets of bolts. So does my partner's A1, I'm actually embarrassed for her when we use her car. Perceived quality is the biggest load of rubbish ever, it means nothing when it is only skin deep. I don't even have a blown bulb or a bit of top-up oil to report. I live in a beautiful country and I love exploring every nook and cranny and my G makes it a pleasure. We get in, we go and we don't worry about a thing. With my VW's I got stuck numerous times in remote places with some light that came on or worse.

I couldn't care less about the Golf being better with this, and that, that it rides a bit better, none of that means a thing to me. My QV looks stunning and it does what it says on the tin. I don't know about elsewhere but in SA FCA really stand by their products. I've seen them do goodwill claims on cars out of warranty that VW wouldn't even consider. My VW days are over forever, not because of me but because of VW themselves. Besides, even if the Golf 7 was reliable and didn't rattle, I could never live with the way it looks. If I had to look at that sad face and droopy body in the garage every morning I'll just turn around and go back to sleep. My G is a super model in comparison.
 
#12 ·
Ha - nothing changes I see ;)

Everybody still thinks it's an anti-Alfa conspiracy driven by ad spend, despite the fact that the Giulia for example has been warmly received by pretty much all of the UK motoring press and Alfa Romeo UK have a long history of paying for some of the most expensive (inside front/back cover) real estate in UK motoring publishing.

Wouldn't it be nice if owners could just enjoy their cars based on their own individual tastes instead of making stuff up about the mythical opposition ?

As the chap above says.....

"You choose an Alfa Romeo because it's an Alfa Romeo, not because it's better in any particular way..."
 
#14 ·
This^^^

A few weeks ago, in another thread, I mentioned this:
Hahaha, yes you could be right there. But in my defence, I did say "Depending on how this goes.........."

My main point was to the folk [on here] who for some reason hate VW and have revelled in their problems which unfortunately have contributed to job losses such as this:


I myself find it very odd that some people can hate a company/brand/product so much. :confused:
I suppose it might be a bit like those who vehemently hate a particular brand/operating system of smart phone and express their hate frequently to those who have chosen to buy the item they hate. :nutter:
To me, the best way is to vote with your wallet and leave it at that. :thumbs:


But yes, most of all, I hope that jobs and livelihoods of FCA employees and their suppliers employees are not put in jeopardy over this.
The key bit is about the 'VW haters'.
I just don't get it.
:confused:
We all like alfas for being what they are.
Others love VWs for what they are.
To quote Jack Nicholson as President Dale: “Why can’t we work out our differences? Why can’t we work things out? Little people, why can’t we all just get along?”
 
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#13 ·
VW spend the money making the bits which the driver can see feel and look nice and they make those bits feel well put together.

It is that impression of quality that sells the car to most people, even if the oily bits are not really much different.

The G does feel dissapointingly cheap on the interior even compared to our Mk2 Focus, and I can imagine the Golf 7 interior is much further on again.


The cars that I have owned which felt the best built were the E39 BMW 5 series.
 
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#18 ·
Okay, I agree Auto express comes out with some crap.
But let's be accurate here.
They are not always VAG puppets.

The Guilia QV scored 4 stars: Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio review | Auto Express

And Audi beaten by Jag hands down:
Audi Q5 vs Jaguar F-Pace vs Mercedes GLC | Auto Express

Don't get me wrong, I am not biased. Former Toyota, current Audi employee. But I love AR.
Love cars above all.

Just don't get why many AR lovers really hate VW group products so much. (As well as those who drive them)
:confused:
 
#20 ·
Is that a reason to hate the cars? And the people who drive them?
Many brands (including big firms such as apple (in the past)) use sweatshops to create their products, exploiting children and taking work away from fairly paid people. But folk don't hate the likes of Primark or the people who wear it.

As I say, I find the 'hate' of VW a bit odd. :nutter:

And let's not talk about car companies being financed by 'governments' such as Lower Saxony. Because most car companies fall under a similar umbrella.
 
#24 ·
Totally agree with you on those two points. The whole defeat device scandal and how it has been handled is terrible (and displays a certain arrogance . . . . But are the Germs not renowned by the British for their seemingly arrogant ways?)
And I also was never a fan of him and his management principals. (Hope he goes down for a spell actually.)
But the cars, the engineering, the quality. The efforts of thousands of people within VW and suppliers.. . . Good IMO. Just not as lovely as an Alfa. :)
 
#25 ·
I went to Geneva show on Friday and was reminded how impressive the perceived quality is on an X5 or Audi compared to the Stelvio . I believe that when you consider the journalists are more accustomed to the driving setup of a VW or BMW due to the number of launches they attend it's not surprising they sometimes prefer them. It's called taste or what you're used to.
 
#30 ·
You bought your Alfa because you like it, you wanted it and it suits your needs. No other justification to anyone else is needed.

AutoExpress gave it three stars? Who cares. Just enjoy owning and driving the Alfa you wanted. :)
 
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#40 ·
I think that's probably wise.
It's clear that even a "good" car like mine is busily plotting ways to fail, and some of those failures reported are incredible indeed - like Active Cruise Control jamming the brakes on, for example. Mine was confused on several dates in the past few months, but fortunately, I wasn't using it to drive the car.

-Alex
 
#36 ·
Not going to comment on the VAG/FCA thing as I'm a true follower of the buy-what-makes-you-smile principle, but both collegues at work have been looking at buying used Giuliettas recently and have found that the ones with low mileage hold their value very well, regardless of the engine. apparently you can't find a 1.4 tb Giulietta with 40k miles for less than 14k euro. That's 2k less than the car would've cost new! I've also found that most owners keep their Giuliettas a long time.

So why do they keep their value so well? Low supply, or high demand?
 
#37 ·
Probably a bit of both, plus people are cottoning onto the fact they are a lot more reliable than most "Reliable" brands.
 
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#41 ·
Fantastic information there; thanks for finding this.

I think in light of the Giulia's styling similarity to the BMW 3-Series, Alfa Romeo would do well to identify their defining characteristics more clearly. But that's just my personal opinion. I suppose dramatically different styles between model generations have always worked for Alfa Romeo in the past.

-Alex
 
#39 · (Edited)
Well - I sold my Golf today, and I am so glad that's over. What a bloody nightmare! It turns out you pay a high price for that market-leading quality :)

The new owner decided to have it inspected by a local, well-respected, independent VW and BMW specialist. For some reason I had not thought to go there before; I'd relied on the local franchise dealer for advice - one bit of advice was that the DSG-7 gearbox "does not require servicing, as the dry clutches don't degrade the fluid as wet clutches do". Therefore, the service was to be a simple engine oil change, which I carried out myself with ease, resetting the interval using the trip button as you do.

Now I should have borrowed the VCDS software and cable from a friend and checked the car at that point - but I didn't.

Therefore the inspection today, which took an hour and generated a 20-page report, turned up 235 faults including important ones such as 'DSG clutch wear exceeded tolerance' and 'DSG fluid quality deteriorated'. Plus a handful of more obvious mechanical faults, such as three oil leaks. Just about every system on the car had some kind of intermittent problem logged in the last few months, from the ABS pump to the reversing camera, even though no warning light had ever illuminated on the dash.

The buyer entered into a negotiation to fix the most major faults with the specialist and obtain a warranty through them at a total cost of $3000, which was probably sensible, and I accepted his offer of $500 less than my minimum price, which was a reasonable outcome for everyone involved.

The 2013 Golf 7 is therefore the most expensive car I've owned; not to buy, but in the $2000 of trips to the dealer to fix various faults with niceties such as the active cruise control and the remote key (I considered these may have related to the car's past life in Japan) - then the $5000 of lost value (significant depreciation, worse even than the same-aged Stilo that I used to own), AND then it turns out that during my ownership, a ton of new faults have been brewing. This is just in one year and about 14,000km of driving. A three-year-old car that costs that much to run? I wouldn't have believed it.

I've never felt quite so disconnected and dissatisfied with the maintenance of a car. Here I am, innocently changing the engine oil, and meanwhile the rain sensor is generating implausible signals, the parking brake calipers are uncalibrating themselves, and tomorrow the steering sensor will lose its position. Not exactly "simple, strong, honest, reliable, and safe", is it?

But hey, at least it will feel as refined as a Mercedes and there won't be any rattles or squeaks.

So although the Golf may be an amazing high-quality car when new, I cannot possibly recommend one as a second-hand buy, due to poor reliability, awful depreciation, and expensive maintenance costs. Clutches worn out at 75,000km?! And some people thought Selespeed was bad...

-Alex
 
#42 ·
So although the Golf may be an amazing high-quality car when new, I cannot possibly recommend one as a second-hand buy, due to poor reliability, awful depreciation, and expensive maintenance costs. Clutches worn out at 75,000km?! And some people thought Selespeed was bad...

-Alex
Obviously it couldn't have been that good when new :rofl:

Seriously though I think you are well shot of it.

the Mk4 Golf wasn't exatly a reliable car, and you would think that they would have learned from it. But no people carried on buying them regardless so they made no attempt to improve them.
 
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