The GTV Cup list 2 - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 23Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
The plot thickens....

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJiri View Post
Previously I had 1.8TS 1999, VIN ZAR91600006061159 - ePer shows the same thing (i'm talking about GD/GS selection), but on this one I'm 100% sure it was originally LHD.

It's also strange that #074 Cup from your list of UK cars was for sale 2 years ago, but my Cup is in Czech since 2005, so it's obviously 2 different cars. If my Cup has been converted from UK version, then there cannot be another #074 in UK four years later... I think that if RHD #074 still exists, my Cup has to be the European #074 Cup, it's just not silver TS, but red V6.

Thanks for all the effort
...as Alfa confirm your chassis number ending 7004429 is/was RHD.

I checked the steering racks on Eper, an obvious component different between LHD & RHD. 'V4', which is the Cup reference, only has one part number, no GS or GD alternatives, which makes me think ALL V6 Cups were originally RHD as there's only one rack quoted for them.

How your Cup was in Italy & the UK at the same time is a mistery, unless the original Cup list has it wrong?

Until someone tracks down another Cup 74 we must assume that yours is converted.

Clive

Last edited by CG Trading; 04-10-11 at 11:35. Reason: punctuation, add number
CG Trading is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Czech Republic
County: Středočeský
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...ld-cup-is.html

Maybe this man can bring a light to this "case"
PJiri is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
I've done some more research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJiri View Post
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...ld-cup-is.html

Maybe this man can bring a light to this "case"
...or more confusion!?

Cup no' 74 original reg Y941 MNE is now on D5AWX & is currently taxed in the UK, chassis number ends .....20. Previously registered D5DMG in May 2003, which is now on an Alfa 159 2.4 JTDM....is the owner an AO member? This Cup has had 7 owners, the current since November 2009.

Chassis number given by yourself, PJiri, is registered WF51YRC as a Cup which is also currently taxed in the UK. The current owner has owned it since March 2005. We have no way of knowing the Cup number without the owner telling us...trust me on this.

So where does this leave you? Check your chassis number carefully, especially where it is stamped in the right hand suspension turret. Can you also check your engine number please?

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: AROC 916 Registrar
AO Gold Member
 
Mitch916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Images: 8
What a mystery!

I personally can't see it being converted but I have no idea how it fits into the "family tree"
Mitch916 is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Czech Republic
County: Středočeský
I'm sorry, I took a look on it and I made a mistake with the VIN - the one I posted is the "#for spares", which work in ePER, where the "real VIN" does not (thats strange too). But about the VIN on the suspension turret - it looks original to me (but I'm not an expert)... Check ImageShack Album - 3 images (sorry for the imageshack again). I'll try to find an engine number.
PJiri is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Czech Republic
County: Středočeský
I didn't find the engine number, I don't know where it is...

Another 3 photos I've just made ImageShack Album - 3 images
PJiri is offline  
pkr
Status: Planning the next project ...
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
To do a LHD/RHD conversion properly would be hugely difficult. The bodyshells aren't mirror imaged at the bulkhead. So to do it properly, moving the brake servo etc would require the bulkhead cutting out and an LHD one welded in.
pkr is offline  
Status: The best engine in the world
AO Silver Member
 
Persimmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Nottinghamshire
Images: 38
There has to be two number 74's given the details I believe.

Also more importantly the plaque colour is different.

It can't be a RHD original tranferred over as the plaque colour would be like all the UK Cups in red text.
Why change from RHD to Left and change the plaque for good measure.

We have to have a third list I think.
What interesting news

Alan
Persimmon is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Believe it or not.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Persimmon View Post
There has to be two number 74's given the details I believe.

Also more importantly the plaque colour is different.

It can't be a RHD original tranferred over as the plaque colour would be like all the UK Cups in red text.
Why change from RHD to Left and change the plaque for good measure.

We have to have a third list I think.
What interesting news

Alan
...there are different part numbers for LHD(GS) & RHD(GD) Cup Plaques! Could be something to do with the text colour but we've still only got one steering rack listed for V6 Cups(V4) & they're the same as the RHD ones.

I'll ask some more questions re the chassis number not registering on Eper, it's the 6, 5th from the end, that's wrong....replace it with a 0 & another Cup comes up!

I think we can safely presume this is a genuine LHD V6 GTV CUP...'special order'.
If there aren't a whole load of LHD V6 Cups then I suspect someone had one specially made & their lucky/favourite number was 74?

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Well Happy Mystery solved!?

I've just HPI checked chassis number ending 7004279, which comes up on Eper as a Cup, & there are no vehicle records.

Therefore I'm pretty sure PJiri's Cup is the 'missing' chassis number but was built LHD(even though Eper still lists it GD & RHD parts for it).

To confirm we need the engine number which, if it's the original, should be number ending .....0958.

Clive

Last edited by CG Trading; 04-10-11 at 22:09. Reason: add word
CG Trading is offline  
Status: V6 is Best!
AO Silver Member
 
Rich_wookey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Somerset
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
... I suspect someone had one specially made & their lucky/favourite number was 74?....
Is it possible that the LHD Silver & Red Cups shared the same number range? so that the numbers of the LHD Red cars were mingled in with the Silver numbers?

Rich
Rich_wookey is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_wookey View Post
Is it possible that the LHD Silver & Red Cups shared the same number range? so that the numbers of the LHD Red cars were mingled in with the Silver numbers?

Rich
that wouldn't explain the 'odd' chassis number that's not registering anywhere though.

You'd probably not seen my previous post #60 before your latest post.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: Hiding snuggled up under a cover!
AO Member
 
Cup 57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Durham
Images: 4
The plot thickens

Or did a man in Italy just randomly stamp numbers in plaques....
Cup 57 is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Clear as mud

Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
I'll ask some more questions re the chassis number not registering on Eper, it's the 6, 5th from the end, that's wrong....replace it with a 0 & another Cup comes up!

I think we can safely presume this is a genuine LHD V6 GTV CUP...'special order'.
If there aren't a whole load of LHD V6 Cups then I suspect someone had one specially made & their lucky/favourite number was 74?

Clive
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
I've just HPI checked chassis number ending 7004279, which comes up on Eper as a Cup, & there are no vehicle records.

Therefore I'm pretty sure PJiri's Cup is the 'missing' chassis number but was built LHD(even though Eper still lists it GD & RHD parts for it).

To confirm we need the engine number which, if it's the original, should be number ending .....0958.

Clive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 57 View Post
The plot thickens

Or did a man in Italy just randomly stamp numbers in plaques....
No, the plot is virtually clear...I think.

Chassis number ending 7064279 doesn't exist(no 706???? exists) but 7004279 is a V6 Cup that doesn't exist in the UK. Me thinks these are the same GTV Cup built LHD as a one off.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Czech Republic
County: Středočeský
The engine number is AR16105 000909, it's slightly visible on the photo I took 5 minutes ago: Imageshack - alfa039.jpg

What does it mean, that my chassis number doesn't exist? Do you think it's faked somehow?
PJiri is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
I wouldn't worry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
I think we can safely presume this is a genuine LHD V6 GTV CUP...'special order'.
If there aren't a whole load of LHD V6 Cups then I suspect someone had one specially made & their lucky/favourite number was 74?

Clive
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
I've just HPI checked chassis number ending 7004279, which comes up on Eper as a Cup, & there are no vehicle records.

Therefore I'm pretty sure PJiri's Cup is the 'missing' chassis number but was built LHD(even though Eper still lists it GD & RHD parts for it).

Clive
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
Chassis number ending 7064279 doesn't exist(no 706???? exists) but 7004279 is a V6 Cup that doesn't exist in the UK. Me thinks these are the same GTV Cup built LHD as a one off.

Clive
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJiri View Post
What does it mean, that my chassis number doesn't exist? Do you think it's faked somehow?

..about the engine number as engines are often changed.

Please read my posts above again which I think help explain things.

I doubt anyone other than the original car builder or owner can answer our questions, so it's best to leave it there rather than have everyone on here guess what might be.

I'll include your Cup in the listing, seperately.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: The best engine in the world
AO Silver Member
 
Persimmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Nottinghamshire
Images: 38
I don't believe this to be a one off V6 Red LHD model with a number created (lucky number) .

I think we should look at it as follows.

We know that the total Cups produced for retail were 419.
(not counting the actual Racing Series Cup's)

Of that 155 were GTV red V6 versions for the UK market

We know that 239 cars were produced in the 2 litre Silver Spec all LHD for Europe.

That leaves the other mystery 26 cars.

These must have been created in the V6 version possibily all in red (maybe some in silver ??)
I have seen written that there are rumours of a few Black cars as well

The number of PJiri's car being number 74 suggests all the European cars were done in sequence running from 1- 265

I have found four Silver cups for sale on one european website at the moment including number 234

This car has its plaque in the same colour as PJiri's car.

I think we need two lists - One UK (RED V6) and one European (Silver TS and RED V6 )

Alan
Persimmon is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Sorry Alan but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Persimmon View Post
I don't believe this to be a one off V6 Red LHD model with a number created (lucky number) .

I think we should look at it as follows.

We know that the total Cups produced for retail were 419.
(not counting the actual Racing Series Cup's)

Of that 155 were GTV red V6 versions for the UK market

We know that 239 cars were produced in the 2 litre Silver Spec all LHD for Europe.

That leaves the other mystery 26 cars.

These must have been created in the V6 version possibily all in red (maybe some in silver ??)
I have seen written that there are rumours of a few Black cars as well

The number of PJiri's car being number 74 suggests all the European cars were done in sequence running from 1- 265

I have found four Silver cups for sale on one european website at the moment including number 234

This car has its plaque in the same colour as PJiri's car.

I think we need two lists - One UK (RED V6) and one European (Silver TS and RED V6 )

Alan
........you're ignoring the chassis number of PJiri's car, which in my opion is the 'missing' UK car with the zero 'altered' to a 6. It's certainly not a coincidence that the two chassis numbers are nearly identical.

I've spent far to much time, & money for HPI searches, on this already. So until another LHD V6 Cup comes along the lists stay as they are...for now.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: The best engine in the world
AO Silver Member
 
Persimmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Nottinghamshire
Images: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
........you're ignoring the chassis number of PJiri's car, which in my opion is the 'missing' UK car with the zero 'altered' to a 6. It's certainly not a coincidence that the two chassis numbers are nearly identical.

I've spent far to much time, & money for HPI searches, on this already. So until another LHD V6 Cup comes along the lists stay as they are...for now.

Clive
For now.. its been six hours Clive. Is that enough time ...

I appreciate the efforts you have put in but your theory is that some Italian had a V6 Cup made up (just for him) and because it was his lucky number he got the guy in Alfa to stick on a limited edition No. 74 badge onto his car instead of the Silver Cup it was supossed to be on.

I am sorry that does not sound likely in the slightest and I know its Alfa we are dealing with here.
And what about the other 25 mystery Cups that were created based on the AROC info you supplied.. What are they then ?

I think you should consider that the non UK Cups were mainly a TS Silver production run and that they decided to make some RED Cups in a V6 left hand drive form as the brief to fulfil the UK order was clear and as they were produced they were badged with the limited edition number on it and in sequence.

To say you won't do anything until another ones comes up is sad.
A week ago if you, as an expert in GTV's had been asked if Alfa had made V6 Cups in LHD, I am sure you would have said no.

But we now have proof.
Perhaps if another does come along you might argue its another Italian guy with another lucky number !
Engine/chassis numbers are all well and good but they are never that cast in stone. Its Alfa we are dealing with.

I will leave it to you as the new custodian of the Cup list to hopefully consider fairly other viewpoints than just your own please.

Alan
Persimmon is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Theories are all well & good but facts are better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Persimmon View Post
For now.. its been six hours Clive. Is that enough time ...

I appreciate the efforts you have put in but your theory is that some Italian had a V6 Cup made up (just for him) and because it was his lucky number he got the guy in Alfa to stick on a limited edition No. 74 badge onto his car instead of the Silver Cup it was supossed to be on.

I am sorry that does not sound likely in the slightest and I know its Alfa we are dealing with here.
And what about the other 25 mystery Cups that were created based on the AROC info you supplied.. What are they then ?

I think you should consider that the non UK Cups were mainly a TS Silver production run and that they decided to make some RED Cups in a V6 left hand drive form as the brief to fulfil the UK order was clear and as they were produced they were badged with the limited edition number on it and in sequence.

To say you won't do anything until another ones comes up is sad.
A week ago if you, as an expert in GTV's had been asked if Alfa had made V6 Cups in LHD, I am sure you would have said no.

But we now have proof.
Perhaps if another does come along you might argue its another Italian guy with another lucky number !
Engine/chassis numbers are all well and good but they are never that cast in stone. Its Alfa we are dealing with.

I will leave it to you as the new custodian of the Cup list to hopefully consider fairly other viewpoints than just your own please.

Alan
it is exactly because of PJiri's chassis number, which you aren't taking into account, that I think it's a 'back door' LHD V6 Cup & not one of the mystery 25 V6 Cups unaccounted for or part of the 239 LHD Silver TS Cups.

Plaque 74 could've been changed or added at anytime, far easier than chassis numbers etc...perhaps it's a red herring?

I've taken on board your theory but I consider mine more plausible due to the incorrect but virtually identical chassis number as I've posted before.

Until some more proof comes along let's leave it as it is...a possibility.

No more guess work from either of us please.

Feel free to phone me, tomorrow, if you wish to discuss it further.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: The best engine in the world
AO Silver Member
 
Persimmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Nottinghamshire
Images: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG Trading View Post
Until some more proof comes along let's leave it as it is...a possibility.

No more guess work from either of us please.

Feel free to phone me, tomorrow, if you wish to discuss it further.

Clive
Is the possibility ......you theory or only just mine !!

A random Red V6 cup was made on a whim !!

And a plaque put on because it was his lucky number or
it was taken off a car and just put on to this one.
This is not a Cup a Replica we all agree.
This is a genuine Cup here off the production line.

I can hear Mario and Alfredo now on the line saying lets FCUK those craxy English Alfa owners and make one of these RED V6 Cups with the wheel on the correct side.
Will the dumb suckers even notice.
But what number shall we give it says Mario. Well my lucky number is 74 says Alfredo.
Perfect that will do they both chuckle....

And lets just sweep away the other 25 cars mystery as if they dont exist.
I repeat would you have said yes or no to the existing of a LHD Red V6 Cup a week ago.

Sorry really feel you are not facing likely facts here.
I also am well aware you have a business to run and need further grief like a hole in the head on this so ...

Lets agree to disagree.

Who knows if more will appear one day and make fools of some/all of us

Alan
Persimmon is offline  
Status: -
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Czech Republic
County: Středočeský
I'm really sorry for starting this conflict, I just wanted to know how is it possible, that I bought an LHD V6 Cup... I'll try to find first Czech owner of my car and get some more info about it. He should live about 20 miles away, so I hope it won't be difficult to find him personally.
PJiri is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Please chill out.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Persimmon View Post
Is the possibility ......you theory or only just mine !!

A random Red V6 cup was made on a whim !!

And a plaque put on because it was his lucky number or
it was taken off a car and just put on to this one.
This is not a Cup a Replica we all agree.
This is a genuine Cup here off the production line.

I can hear Mario and Alfredo now on the line saying lets FCUK those craxy English Alfa owners and make one of these RED V6 Cups with the wheel on the correct side.
Will the dumb suckers even notice.
But what number shall we give it says Mario. Well my lucky number is 74 says Alfredo.
Perfect that will do they both chuckle....

And lets just sweep away the other 25 cars mystery as if they dont exist.
I repeat would you have said yes or no to the existing of a LHD Red V6 Cup a week ago.

Sorry really feel you are not facing likely facts here.
I also am well aware you have a business to run and need further grief like a hole in the head on this so ...

Lets agree to disagree.

Who knows if more will appear one day and make fools of some/all of us

Alan
.....as I've asked, please call me tomorrow, preferably after you've tried too explain the chassis number...or are you trying to ignore that very important part of the puzzle?

ARUK state: 180 V6 Cups & 239 2.0 TS Cups were made.
155 V6 Cups came to the UK...numbered 1-155.
25 are as yet unknown but none of these would logically be numbered 74.
239 TS Cups numbered 1-239....not 1-73..an odd 74 V6 then 75-239
However there is a V6 Cup with ch no' 7004279 & no record in the UK.
PJiri's LHD V6 Red Cup has ch no' 7064279 which shouldn't exist.

To answer your question:
I repeat would you have said yes or no to the existing of a LHD Red V6 Cup a week ago.?

I would, & still do, say 'quite possibly' as the missing 25 are unknown so could be either RHD or LHD but I doubt any of these would have an incorrect chassis number(nearly identical to an unrecorded UK Cup) or be Cup no' 74.

Now let's wait for more concrete evidence, like another LHD V6 Cup, before we include it in the current lists or make another listing........please.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: Cup-A-Likes are nice too
AO Silver Member
 
CG Trading's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJiri View Post
I'll try to find first Czech owner of my car and get some more info about it. He should live about 20 miles away, so I hope it won't be difficult to find him personally.
Finding the previous owners is a good place to start but I think you'll need to find the 1st owner to really solve the mystery.

Good luck.

Clive
CG Trading is offline  
Status: The best engine in the world
AO Silver Member
 
Persimmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: United Kingdom
County: Nottinghamshire
Images: 38
Clive
Your comment about 180 V6 Cups being made surely gives this away

ARUK state: 180 V6 Cups & 239 2.0 TS Cups were made.
155 V6 Cups came to the UK...numbered 1-155.
25 are as yet unknown but none of these would logically be numbered 74.
239 TS Cups numbered 1-239....not 1-73..an odd 74 V6 then 75-239
However there is a V6 Cup with ch no' 7004279 & no record in the UK.
PJiri's LHD V6 Red Cup has ch no' 7064279 which shouldn't exist.

The production run was 155 V6 cars RHD for the UK with a red plaque numbered 1-155 and the rest were produced in the left hand Drive form numbered 1-265 all with the black plaque.
During the planned run 239 were Silver TS and the remaining 26 were the V6 probably/possibilly all in red.

If you look at the plaques and where and how stuck on its fairly random so again the Silver cars would have been produced and the LHD V6 cars then produced. Or Via versa.
Or the V6 LHD ones were produced at the time of the UK batch.
Numbering could have been done at anytime maybe when all the car interiors were in and 400 odd cars were all ready to be finalised

I am not ignoring your facts just looking at strong logical probablity rather than possibilities.
The ideal that Alfa produced 1 Red V6 Cup in LHD with a lucky number idea is absurd.
We know they did 180according to your information.
There are at least 25 non UK spec cars.

These must have been done LHD otherwise they would have been shipped to the UK.

Alan
Persimmon is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa GTV & 916 Spider

Tags
cup , gtv , list

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome