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300bhp N/A Busso

How does one ensure 300bhp from a Busso? Without going for forced induction or throttle bodies. I would like to build myself a 300bhp engine and have done the head work, now I just need t know if I need to do anything on the bottom end.

Will I need a new plenum?
Will I need a Ferrari F430 maf?
Will I need a F430 throttle body?
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3.7 big bore kit & strengthen everything, costs a small fortune.....easier to supercharge it.

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3.2 busso should get near 300 with better breathing and exhaling
I would say some fastroad cams, bigger throttlebody, freeflow exhaust 70mm with good manifolds and ofcourse nice remap with 7600rpm limit. 290 to 300bhp almost guaranteed.
I really hope to make custom ecu for my 3.0 project soon and see the numbers on the dyno.
My gtv had 21s to 200kph with 1360kg. That should translate to cca 275bhp from 3.0 and without remap.
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Jim K cams, lightened & balanced bottom end, high compression pistons (or skimmed down heads if you're on a budget), free-flow exhaust including manifolds, remapped ECU, that will get you there. Plenums, MAFs, throttlebodies etc is all just playing around the edges. Its cams, compression & revs you need to make power.
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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
Jim K cams, lightened & balanced bottom end, high compression pistons (or skimmed down heads if you're on a budget), free-flow exhaust including manifolds, remapped ECU, that will get you there. Plenums, MAFs, throttlebodies etc is all just playing around the edges. Its cams, compression & revs you need to make power.
If you can't breath quickly then your revs mean nothing. The truth is that even by doing nothing else to your engine, fitting a larger plenum, maf and throttlebody leads to a power increase of around 8bhp which just shows how restrictive the system already is. Just to put things into perspective:

The F430 throttlebody size is 84mm and the F430 has 2 and makes 480bhp which equals 240bhp per throttlebody.
The stock 3.2 has a 67mm throttlebody and makes 248bhp through it. Now we are attempting to make it give 300bhp but we want to keep the same throttlebody. Why don't we learn from Ferrari and fit a bigger one?

Yes cams and compression will make the engine breath better but your intake system is actually more important that your exhaust system and will get you there just as easily.

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it's not that simple... ferrari revs to 9000 and has max power at 8500rpm alfa to 7200 and max power at 6200.
More revs more air. Yes we could say that gta tb is small because it's the same as on 2.5 and 3.0, but there are bigger problems to solve before we get to tb. Anyway for 300bhp i would definitely use bigger tb ( well i have 84mm on my custom made plenum with trumpets that i used on gtv)
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High Performance Math - Throttlebody Size Calculator

Seems to suggest for a street 3.2 engine making peak power at 6200rpm the best throttlebody size is 59mm. For a race engine, 68mm.

At 7000rpm peak power which is a realistic goal for the Busso V6, then for a street engine optimum is 62.75mm. 72mm for a race engine.

I'd be keen on seeing some rolling road data for throttlebody changes on Alfas. I know the 360 throttlebody makes the engines feel really nice but the only one I've ever seen rolling roaded was slap bang in the middle of the other two GTAs that also got tested on the day, indicating that TB size was not the limiting factor.

Autolusso Penrith - UK's leading independent Alfa Romeo specialist with branches in Bedfordshire, Cumbria & Dorset

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Last edited by Pud237; 23-08-16 at 16:26.
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I think I'll leave it to you guys to discuss all the theoretical stuff.

Fit a supercharger & be guaranteed 300+bhp......you know it makes sense.

Second Hand Alfa Romeo GTV 3.0 V6 24V Q2 Lusso Supercharged 300+bhp Cup beater! for sale in Brighton, West Sussex - C G Trading

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it's not about sense (we wouldnt drive alfas then hehe)
NA power is my goal too, i like challenges.
Pud you know its not just about tb, bigger tb on its own wont do nothing, better plenum, better pipes with nicer flow an ofcourse bigger maf, then it should be aome improvement.
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Originally Posted by alan Q4+33 View Post
it's not that simple... ferrari revs to 9000 and has max power at 8500rpm alfa to 7200 and max power at 6200.
More revs more air. Yes we could say that gta tb is small because it's the same as on 2.5 and 3.0, but there are bigger problems to solve before we get to tb. Anyway for 300bhp i would definitely use bigger tb ( well i have 84mm on my custom made plenum with trumpets that i used on gtv)
What we need to agree on is this: Power is a "rate". In other words, it is the rate at which an engine can do work. So in other words, how many joules of energy is produced per second.

The energy comes from burning fuel in air. Now if I want to make 200bhp I need a fixed amount of air supplied within 1 second to be able to do that. It doesn't matter what the engine displacement is. A smaller displacement will need to rev higher in order to breath in the required quantity of air per second while a larger engine will need to rev lower, but you will end up with the same mass flow rate of air moving through the throttle body. The same amount in kg per second whether you make 200bhp at 9000rpm or 200bhp at 4500rpm.

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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
High Performance Math - Throttlebody Size Calculator

Seems to suggest for a street 3.2 engine making peak power at 6200rpm the best throttlebody size is 59mm. For a race engine, 68mm.

At 7000rpm peak power which is a realistic goal for the Busso V6, then for a street engine optimum is 62.75mm. 72mm for a race engine.

I'd be keen on seeing some rolling road data for throttlebody changes on Alfas. I know the 360 throttlebody makes the engines feel really nice but the only one I've ever seen rolling roaded was slap bang in the middle of the other two GTAs that also got tested on the day, indicating that TB size was not the limiting factor.
Here you go, and this is with a F360 TB. I know of one with a F430 TB running massive numbers: http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...take-mods.html (Dynos before and after intake mods)

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I think I'll leave it to you guys to discuss all the theoretical stuff.

Fit a supercharger & be guaranteed 300+bhp......you know it makes sense.

Second Hand Alfa Romeo GTV 3.0 V6 24V Q2 Lusso Supercharged 300+bhp Cup beater! for sale in Brighton, West Sussex - C G Trading

Clive
No. I want to build a naturally aspirated 320bhp+ 3.2 V6 engine that revs to 8000rpm
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No. I want to build a naturally aspirated 320bhp+ 3.2 V6 engine that revs to 8000rpm
Ha ha......good luck with that!

Seriously even if it is possible, which I doubt, it would cost a small fortune & what's the point?

Where would you use it, are you going to race it, the engine would cost far more than the car's worth.

Better off buying another type of car & enjoy the GTV for what it is, IMO.

Clive
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Ha ha......good luck with that!

Seriously even if it is possible, which I doubt, it would cost a small fortune & what's the point?

Where would you use it, are you going to race it, the engine would cost far more than the car's worth.

Better off buying another type of car & enjoy the GTV for what it is, IMO.

Clive
Luckily it's my car, my money and my decision

Yes I do know of one like this. Actually 2. But I have pictures of the one. Which I can't send to you since you have the habit of posting other people's pics on internet forums when you wish to be foolish. I will however just show you this: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...719-WA0024.jpg

Redline stats at 8000 but the car cuts out at 8500rpm.
It has electronic individual throttles while still retaining the intake runners, huge carbon plenum, 380mm front discs, 330mm rear discs, 20" wheels to fit all of that under, coil-over suspension and by the way it's a 3.7L engine.

All I want to do is do that to my 3.2...
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High Performance Math - Throttlebody Size Calculator

Seems to suggest for a street 3.2 engine making peak power at 6200rpm the best throttlebody size is 59mm. For a race engine, 68mm.

At 7000rpm peak power which is a realistic goal for the Busso V6, then for a street engine optimum is 62.75mm. 72mm for a race engine.
Can we get back to that 4.3L Ferrari engine in my example?

Specs: Engine capacity = 4.3L
Engine power: 480bhp
Max power rpm: 8500rpm
Throttle body size required according to your calculator: single, 80.5mm throttle body needed. Ferrari must have gotten it wrong then. They have 2 x 86mm throttle bodies fitted.
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Ian i support you!
But revving it past 7800 will require solid lifters.
100bhp per litre is possible with 7500rpm, just!
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Luckily it's my car, my money and my decision

Yes I do know of one like this. Actually 2. But I have pictures of the one. Which I can't send to you since you have the habit of posting other people's pics on internet forums when you wish to be foolish. I will however just show you this: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...719-WA0024.jpg

Redline stats at 8000 but the car cuts out at 8500rpm.
It has electronic individual throttles while still retaining the intake runners, huge carbon plenum, 380mm front discs, 330mm rear discs, 20" wheels to fit all of that under, coil-over suspension and by the way it's a 3.7L engine.

All I want to do is do that to my 3.2...
.........................'by the way that's a 3.7 engine'..........exactly what I said originally but as you say it's your money. I can think of many other ways to spend it but it's your decision.

You'd probably get a better response in the GTA or Tuning sections of AO.

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I have a thread there in the modifications lounge, but not everyone visits there so I thought I would ask around to see if anybody has built such an engine before.
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Don't forget brakes, suspension, 300 BHP through the front wheels...
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Don't forget brakes, suspension, 300 BHP through the front wheels...
I've only just fitted a Q2 to the Autodelta Supercharged, 319bhp, which had done 13,000 miles on original std diff & drove fine.

Good std suspension & brakes would be good enough but mines got coil overs & 330s.

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My suspension is Koni Sport Yellow adjusbles all round on Eibach -45mm suspension. I currently have 18" wheels and am ordering MTEC C-Groove brakes all round, standard for the time being but will have some 330mm discs and calipers fitted in the next few months. Pads will be Mintex Red or DS2500.
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Ian i support you!
But revving it past 7800 will require solid lifters.
100bhp per litre is possible with 7500rpm, just!
Ok Alan do you know how? That is what I am trying to get at. My whole wishlist:

Forged pistons
Forged rods
Solid lifters
Larger valves
Porting and gasflowing (done)
Compression 11:1 (done)
New exhaust system with larger diameter headers and exhaust pipe
F430 throttle
F430 maf
Twin BMC OTA filters
Carbon plenum
What did I miss?...
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Hi Ian!

You have probably seen this, but just in case:

http://www.squadra916.com/forums/top...roject/?page=1
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Hi Ian!

You have probably seen this, but just in case:

http://www.squadra916.com/forums/top...roject/?page=1
I have actually seen that but I would like to maintain my car as a 3.2 rather.
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Originally Posted by Ian Lusso View Post
Forged pistons
Forged rods
Solid lifters
Larger valves
Porting and gasflowing (done)
Compression 11:1 (done)
New exhaust system with larger diameter headers and exhaust pipe
F430 throttle
F430 maf
Twin BMC OTA filters
Carbon plenum
What did I miss?...
Cams ?

Ian, have you looked at the Guy Croft website ? He's an ex F1 engineer that specialises in Fiat Twin Cams but he's very knowledgeable and happy (sometimes too happy ) to share it. I'd be surprised if he hasn't worked on Busso V6s before.

He got 300bhp from a 2.0 Rover KV6 (OK full race @ 10,500rpm but even so) and 2.0 Hot rod engines to 190 bhp at less than 8000 rpm with very fat torque curves.
NB If he thinks you're full of **** he'll probably tell you so!
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Busso is a Busso. Give it a bit more air flow and you may get higher 200's. After that leave it alone. You want more grunt then get another car. Just my opinion of course !
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Busso is a Busso. Give it a bit more air flow and you may get higher 200's. After that leave it alone. You want more grunt then get another car. Just my opinion of course !
You see...

I don't want to get another car, and I don't back down from any challenge. I want to see if it is possible no latter the cost and that is what I am going to do. It will probably take a few years because I'll need to save between each careful acquisition. But one thing is for certain: At the end of it all, I will have a 300bhp N/A Busso.

They do exist. There are quite a few of them out there. I just never thought that it would be so difficult to get the required info from who-ever has done such a job before, or that most people would want to shoot down the project before it even started, or tell me that it would cost too much.

Also, I do have other cars as well. I just don't have a 300BHP N/A GTV... Yet...
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