Cold weather (?) 156 GTA niggles?

Lately my 156 SW GTA -04 has developed a couple of funnies. It could seem to coincide with the cold weather; currently at night there's -10C to -20C, and the daytime temperatures are -5C to -10C.

1 - When starting from (very) cold there's a warbling tone in the engine bay, a bit like an old unsteady car-horn, only not as loud. It comes from the general area around the cambelt or the frontside cylinder bank cam-drive, but I'm not certain - it could emanate from somwhere deeper within. The sound only lasts for maybe 10 seconds or so. Could be the sound of a suffering bearing or waterpump perhaps, or... not really sure. The cambelt was done around 5000km a few months ago at an Alfa specialist. The engine is perfect in all other respects. Should I be afraid?

2 - The display on top of the dash stays off for 10-15 minutes or so, then it suddenly comes on with a Ping and the "Possible ice...' warning. When the car is warm-started it comes on immediately. I have been speculating that it only switches on when the cockpit has reached a certain temperature - if that is the case, would it be a bug or a feature?

Oh, and yesterday the screen/light washers stopped spraying any liquid at either end of the car. The pumps run and the reservoir is full. I wonder what it could be - strange since there's two separate pickups and pumps (for front and rear I assume).

TIA!

DJ
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Originally Posted by DrJustice

1 - When starting from (very) cold there's a warbling tone in the engine bay, a bit like an old unsteady car-horn,

Could it be the same problem many Finnish Alfa drivers have? On cold temperatures the power steering makes a squeeling sound during cold starts. I have it on my GTA too. When the temperature drops to below -10 deg Celcius the sound lasts a little bit longer. Does this sound similar to your problem?

Some people have changed the power steering fluid and managed to get rid of the sound. I had the fluid changed on my GTA also but it seems like the sound is not gone.

If your problem is the same then you have to be careful not to turn the steering wheel suddenly when the sound is still audible. If you do this then that might cause the power steering fluid to leak.

its easy to say if it powersteering, just turn steering wheel and if the noise changes it is that. You should change fully synthetic power steering fluids (eg. Mobil ATF SHC) this helps to reduce noise, it doesnt come totally noiseless but it helps and dont turn the wheel when its screaming...

Thanks Portti and Antti!

It sounds like it could very well be the same problem as you have in Finland, then. I shall gently touch the steering wheel on the next cold-start to hear if that affects the sound. And I shall put some Mobil ATF SHC in the servo at the first opportunity - anything to get rid of such a scary sound

DJ
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Right - been out starting it up now. The sound came on and I touched the steering wheel which made it change - so it is the servo then. At least thats better than a moaning cam drive....

It's ca. -12C today and the sound lasted perhaps close to a minute. At the end it stuttered for a few seconds before stopping completely.

And no LCD today either, I'm hoping it'll switch on as usual in 15 minutes time.

DJ
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Interesting...........so, how do you change power steering fluid, is there a drain at a low point in the system. My squeals from time to time, I hope it is not a bearing as that is not good news - it does tend to change with engine speed and turning the wheels - so I have always assumed it is the power steering pump. I may take the auxiliary drive belt off during Christmas to check that it is not a tensioner bearing. To try and isolate the noise - but unfortunately the noise happens from time to time.

On the screen washing problem, I used to get this with the 33. It was either the washer bottle freezing up or the pipes from the bottle to the jets or pump freezing. Once the car had stood for a day above about 4 degrees it thawed and all was fine.

Your screen is similar to mine when it is cold. I assumed it was too cold for the LCD display to work. After about 10 minutes of driving it comes on, just seems to be a temperature thing.

Originally Posted by DrJustice

Right - been out starting it up now. The sound came on and I touched the steering wheel which made it change - so it is the servo then. At least thats better than a moaning cam drive....

It's ca. -12C today and the sound lasted perhaps close to a minute. At the end it stuttered for a few seconds before stopping completely.

And no LCD today either, I'm hoping it'll switch on as usual in 15 minutes time.

DJ
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there is maybe problem with your LCD maybe wiring or something , mine works ok with -20c degrees...

OK Antti. I didn't manage to convince myself entirely that this is a feature anyway.

Today at -6C, everything worked; no servo wailing, the LCD came straight on and the washers worked. Thus my conclusion so far, also considering what you guys tell me, is that these cars have issues in cold weather. Hmm.. I would think that northen Italy can get quite cold... Thank Busso that they had the sense to offer heated seats!

Oh well, not enough there to deter me from the full and unrestricted enjoyment of the car

DJ
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I don't really want to hijack this thread but as I feel I have a similar problem with my GT 2.0 JTS, I'm doing it anyhow . My problem: In September i went away on holidays for two weeks and left my car at Gatwick. Picking it up at night (it was fairly cold) there was this squeeling noise (a bit like a slipping v belt on old minicabs) which lasted about 10 minutes until the engine was hot I presumed. As the weather was fairly warm for about a month, the noise didn't return but at the end of October it re-appeared as soon as the weather became cold and wet. I thought it was the v belt and as I had to change all the belts and tensioners anyhow after three years I assumed that that was the solution..... It wasn't. It still squeels but not always. It obviously does not squeel at the garage therefore they cannot find it. It has squeeled like there is no tomorrow though the entire last week with all the cold and foggy weather. So there you are, all belts and tensioners are new. The sound is similar to a slipping v belt and changes in sound with the revs of the engine (the sound is bit like stormy wind, really annoying) and lasts until the engine is hot. As long as the engine is warm, the sound doesn't return. I've tried if it were the power steering from above but it's not that (at least when I turn the steering wheel the sound remains the same). With my limited knowledge I sort of think it has something to do with either the alternator (as it only happens when the engine is cold) or a bearing of some kind. Anyone an idea? Thanks

No idea about the noise I'm afraid, sloef. Just saying that yours is not a hijack; it's entirely appropriate Let us find those winter gremlins and ways to deal with them.

I have another car that slips its servo belt a little in cold and wet weather. Slipping V-belts usually have a very characteristic sound. If it walks like a duck...?

DJ
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Thanks DJ! I don't think it's the cambelt, I had that before with another Alfa but it sounds defo like A belt slipping, very scary sound on top of that, like a high pitched wind noise. What other belts are prone to slip? You mentioned the servo belt? By the way, the slipping sound starts straight away the moment I start the engine, so with the first revs! Just when I got rid of all the boot rattles and dash board squeeks!

Originally Posted by sloef

What other belts are prone to slip? You mentioned the servo belt?

I'm not sure how the belts & pulleys are arranged in th various Alfa engines, but the cam belt is toothed and will (hopefully!) not slip. Then there may be non-toothed belts for the steering servo, dynamo, aircon and waterpump (somone please step in and give us the correct this).

DJ
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After reading up on lot's of forums (nothing on the telly anyhow!), I think I've narrowed it down to either the fan belt or alternator bearing. Now I need to find a way to test this myself or at the garage!

Re the screen wash, stick in 0.5l of the least expensive vodka you can buy, that should solve it.

Sloef,

Are you sure you have a fan belt, are they not mostly electrically driven these days.

One thing you could try and please proceed with sensible caution and that is as follows: spray some WD40 in line with the v belt that runs all of the items that do not run with the cam belt. I know this sounds strange but let me explain. I once had a car that had the same problem as you and it would squeal when cold etc etc. I took it to a canny mechanic and he sprayed some WD40 into the line of the running v-belt, so that it went up into the gap between the belt and the wheels. This immediately stopped the squealing belt noise. I asked him would spraying WD40 on a belt not make it worse. He replied that the belt was old and dirty and the WD40 cleaned it and made it a bit more supple so that it worked properly. Anyway I did nothing about it for a few weeks and whenever it started to squeal again I just sprayed some WD.... Eventually I got round to changing the belt - anyway about a day or two after changing the belt it started squealing again.....doh!

So, a day or so later I was passing the garage again and went in and asked why it was still squealing even with a new belt??

The clever man said 'you did give the pulley surfaces a good clean before mounting the belt didn't you to remove all of the dust or belt residue that causes the squealing didn't you.....?' 'Errr.....doh!'

Took the belt off, cleaned everything up with some fine emery paper and solvent cleaner - problem went away forever....

The purpose of this story is that you could try the WD40 just to try and isolate the problem. You spray it on - carefully - whilst the engine is running - and if it is the belt surfaces it almost stops immediately - assuming of course that it is the belt in the first place.

Probably worth checking this suggestion with someone else as it sounds even a bit odd to me - but I have been there. As always please proceed at your own risk - as I accept no liability for this suggestion. (risk disclaimer bit done.)

Well it's one suggestion.........

E.

Thanks Edward! Funny enough I've read about your WD40 solution elsewhere as well! What I mean with fan belt in all my wisdom is Auxiliary belt, the belt that runs the dynamo, waterpump, AC, etc. The belt 'should' be new therefore will definitely have a look at the pully surfaces tomorrow. Many thanks!:xmas:

Originally Posted by DrJustice

Thus my conclusion so far, also considering what you guys tell me, is that these cars have issues in cold weather. --

After one winter with my GTA I would say that the car works very well in winter conditions at least up to -30 deg Celcius. Basically the only winter problem I have had has been the power steering squeeling sound. Other thing you have to careful about in the winter is the low ground clearance.

Otherwise no winter problems and the car is warm is safe in winter.

Good to hear Portti - it can hit -30C here too. I'm not worried about the car giving in. I'm actually very pleased at how well it fares in the cold. Nice and warm, as you say, and the handling on ice and snow is above my initial expectations (on Nokian Hakkapeliitta friction tires BTW). The servo thing has got to be sorted if possible though.

DJ
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Originally Posted by edward

Interesting...........so, how do you change power steering fluid, is there a drain at a low point in the system. My squeals from time to time, I hope it is not a bearing as that is not good news - it does tend to change with engine speed and turning the wheels - so I have always assumed it is the power steering pump. I may take the auxiliary drive belt off during Christmas to check that it is not a tensioner bearing. To try and isolate the noise - but unfortunately the noise happens from time to time.

On the screen washing problem, I used to get this with the 33. It was either the washer bottle freezing up or the pipes from the bottle to the jets or pump freezing. Once the car had stood for a day above about 4 degrees it thawed and all was fine.

Your screen is similar to mine when it is cold. I assumed it was too cold for the LCD display to work. After about 10 minutes of driving it comes on, just seems to be a temperature thing.

Its not easy. The whole system is scattered about across the entire engine bay - rack and resevior at the rear, feeds to the pump on the front and a cooling radiator (GTA specific) on the passenger side at the front of the car (make sure you identify the right radiator - the other is for the engine oil).

You could disconnet the pipes to the pump, resevior and cooling circut (access to the pipes to the rack is awkward to say the least). You still won't drain all of it out.

I would strongly recommend that you don't disconnect a pipe and run the engine. For one thing you'll almost certainly damage the pump and for another if you disconnect a pipe on the high pressure side it will make a hell off a mess.

And finally a word of caution, PS fluid is nasty stuff (corrosive) be vey carefull not to get any in your eyes.

Chances are changing the fluid will not solve your problem.