156 GTA rust epidemic warning?

Originally Posted by jwyatt

The paint is A1, never chipped or damaged in any way there, regularly polished, and I even get the mud off the insides of the arches from time to time...

It does indeed sound like an epidemic. Lucikly for me this thread has reminded me to get the body check done at 3 years...

Annoyingly mine is usually the same, regualarly polished etc. At present though I don't have the time and it looks a real state, which won't help my case

This is a scary thread. Luckily, my 2004 was totally unmarked at 3.5 years an 34k miles. Is it just the GTA's then or do you think the same will apply to GT's etc?

Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso

This is a scary thread. Luckily, my 2004 was totally unmarked at 3.5 years an 34k miles. Is it just the GTA's then or do you think the same will apply to GT's etc?

It seems to be the 156 GTA as it has an extra flare in the arch it is a separate panel from the other models.

Originally Posted by jwyatt

Ar*e. I checked mine out, and the near side has the merest hint of a bubble coming up from underneath in exactly this place. The paint is A1, never chipped or damaged in any way there, regularly polished, and I even get the mud off the insides of the arches from time to time...

It does indeed sound like an epidemic. Lucikly for me this thread has reminded me to get the body check done at 3 years...

Sorry to hear that, at least you are well placed to get it sorted under warranty.

Does anyone else have rust in the rear arches due to failed spot welds between the inner and outer wings? I googled this problem and it seems well documented for MGB's, Spitfires, TR6's and Herald's but seeing it on a 4 year old Alfa is a bloody disgrace.

I got a call from Alfa UK today saying they would cover the reapir, and to ring Mangoletsi and organise it all.
A bit odd really, I hadn't reached the point of talking it through with them yet, so I have given them precisely zero extra information over that supplied by Mangos, so it seems strange for them to just change their minds like that.
I'm not complaining though! Will ring Mangos this afternoon.
So, judging from Garys experience, I should tell them to make sure the rust is no wider spread inside the wing.

Spent the morning out in the cold today stripping out the wheel arch liner and having a good clean and check in the r/h wing area and now wish I hadn’t . I don’t have any rust blisters on the outside of the wing (yet) but unfortunately there is a fair bit on the inside were the wheel arch liner rubs the wing a the corner that is causing all the problems, it is also worn a small line about 2/3 the way round the inside edge almost round to the rear attachment bracket. I put this down to a badly fitting wheel arch liner and or not enough paint on the inside of the wing mixed with grit and vibration over time. Not sure were to go with it now as the 3 year inspection was not carried out by the former owner and it will be 5 years old next April. Going to put some rust treater on it for now but this is by no means a long term fix. Have taken some pics if anyone is interested. DSCF0876.JPG

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Originally Posted by bazza

I got a call from Alfa UK today saying they would cover the reapir, and to ring Mangoletsi and organise it all.
A bit odd really, I hadn't reached the point of talking it through with them yet, so I have given them precisely zero extra information over that supplied by Mangos, so it seems strange for them to just change their minds like that.
I'm not complaining though! Will ring Mangos this afternoon.
So, judging from Garys experience, I should tell them to make sure the rust is no wider spread inside the wing.

Good news Bazza, but are they offering a replacement wing? Anything less is just pushing the problem back a bit.

Originally Posted by Knightboat

Spent the morning out in the cold today stripping out the wheel arch liner and having a good clean and check in the r/h wing area and now wish I hadn’t . I don’t have any rust blisters on the outside of the wing (yet) but unfortunately there is a fair bit on the inside were the wheel arch liner rubs the wing a the corner that is causing all the problems, it is also worn a small line about 2/3 the way round the inside edge almost round to the rear attachment bracket. I put this down to a badly fitting wheel arch liner and or not enough paint on the inside of the wing mixed with grit and vibration over time. Not sure were to go with it now as the 3 year inspection was not carried out by the former owner and it will be 5 years old next April. Going to put some rust treater on it for now but this is by no means a long term fix. Have taken some pics if anyone is interested.

I suspected there will be more of us with this issue. From what the dealer were telling me the inside of the wings are barely protected with whatever mediocre primer they have from manufacture. Why galvanise the top surface and leave the inside so poorly protected?

Are there any good rust inhibitors out there? Past experience is that they don't work for that long and the only way to get rid of the rust is to cut it out.

Originally Posted by gwales

Good news Bazza, but are they offering a replacement wing? Anything less is just pushing the problem back a bit.



I suspected there will be more of us with this issue. From what the dealer were telling me the inside of the wings are barely protected with whatever mediocre primer they have from manufacture. Why galvanise the top surface and leave the inside so poorly protected?

Are there any good rust inhibitors out there? Past experience is that they don't work for that long and the only way to get rid of the rust is to cut it out.

Dinitrol products are supposed to be really good as i mentioned earlier. I'm going to give a full treatment to mine as soon as i start my holiday.

Mangos now have to get back to Alfa for an authorisation code and such like, so I haven't had a chance to discuss fully with them, but I certainly want to leave them in no doubt that they need to do a full inspection of the inner wing to see if the problem is more widespread.

Knightboat - does you can have a full AR service history? Because if it does, and doesn't have the paint inspection, my take on it would be - that's Alfas fault, not the owners. I'd attempt it, can't hurt.

Originally Posted by bazza

Knightboat - does you can have a full AR service history? Because if it does, and doesn't have the paint inspection, my take on it would be - that's Alfas fault, not the owners. I'd attempt it, can't hurt.

Service history is all there bar the 48k service, insted of this it had a cambelt and water pump change along with half the Suspension system! Ironically almost 3 years to the week from registration! So if it had been done it will have done then and there’s no sign in the book. The cambelt and the last three services were done at mangos so I will ring them and see if they have any record of it.

There's no mention of the check in my service history (and Alfa haven't even looked at the service history), and they're repairing mine.

Does anyone have any rust issues with the 147 GTA's?
Just wondering so i can keep an eye out.
Waxed mine the other day and all is well. Fingers crossed!

I have a Masters Degree (with Distinction I might add ) in Corrosion Control Engineering and work as a Metallurgist for a company that makes jet engine discs and I can tell you that there is only one way to permanently solve the problem.

You have to remove ALL the rust. This would usually need to be done by bead blasting. Wet and dry will work to a point, but obviously, invisible amounts of rust are present the second you stop rubbing due to the water used.

Once rust is removed, you should then dry the area (totally force out all the moisture) - the missus back-up hair dryer can suffice, and you risks less of a beating if you knacker it.

You then need to repaint in a temperature controlled, dust-free, de-humidified room for best results. Good body shops will have such a facility. Best to use a zinc-based primer. One that contains resin as well gives a tough protection. Then paint, then laquer. You could try without the zinc-based primer, but IMHO the steel that is used on the Alfa bodywork is likely (but I have not conducted independent chemical analysis of this, so it has not been confirmed, although this can be arranged for £30) to be cheap and dirty (high S, P, Si), so you are much better off with the zinc primer to be sure.

Wax over the top of this will provide further protection, but not wax on top of rust. You are just sealing in water to the area and unless the wax is very thick, oxygen will be able to diffuse through the barrier slowly, meaning slower rusting (but still rusting).

I believe oxygen can diffuse through the paint to the rust, but this is O.K. just as long as water cannot (which it can't providing it has been put on properly). You need water (electrolyte) oxygen and metal for oxidation to occur at a sufficient rate at room temperature.


Sorry to be a tw@t

Nothing to be sorry for there MG! That was a very informative posting

Sad to hear that the steel is, as you say, 'dirty'. Mine is just past 3 years old so better get it checked ASAP. Winter driving in the norwegian/swedish countryside is probably not the kindest on car bodies...

DJ
--

Originally Posted by cul

Does anyone have any rust issues with the 147 GTA's?
Just wondering so i can keep an eye out.
Waxed mine the other day and all is well. Fingers crossed!

Had my rear nearside wheel arch replaced after the third year under warranty, more than surface rust within the paint, it had deformed a couple of centimeters long where arch meets bumper.

Most probably a one off, still worth checking the thickness of the paint toward the inside edge which was too thin on mine.

Originally Posted by Mr Greedy

I have a Masters Degree (with Distinction I might add ) in Corrosion Control Engineering and work as a Metallurgist for a company that makes jet engine discs and I can tell you that there is only one way to permanently solve the problem.

You have to remove ALL the rust. This would usually need to be done by bead blasting. Wet and dry will work to a point, but obviously, invisible amounts of rust are present the second you stop rubbing due to the water used.

Once rust is removed, you should then dry the area (totally force out all the moisture) - the missus back-up hair dryer can suffice, and you risks less of a beating if you knacker it.

You then need to repaint in a temperature controlled, dust-free, de-humidified room for best results. Good body shops will have such a facility. Best to use a zinc-based primer. One that contains resin as well gives a tough protection. Then paint, then laquer. You could try without the zinc-based primer, but IMHO the steel that is used on the Alfa bodywork is so dirty (high S, P, Si), you are much better off with the zinc primer.

Wax over the top of this will provide further protection, but not wax on top of rust. You are just sealing in water to the area and unless the wax is very thick, oxygen will be able to diffuse through the barrier slowly, meaning slower rusting (but still rusting).

I believe oxygen can diffuse through the paint to the rust, but this is O.K. just as long as water cannot (which it can't providing it has been put on properly). You need water (electrolyte) oxygen and metal for oxidation to occur at a sufficient rate at room temperature.


Sorry to be a tw@t

Thanks for sharing, and no apologies necessary, you have the credentials!

There are so many products promising the earth with rust conversion and inhibition that you start to get sucked in to the notion of a quick fix from a bottle. I was getting close to purchasing RustBullet to try and arrest the rust on the rear arch.

I suspect with the inner and outer rear wings rusting from within the join inside the arch that I am not going to easily repair that without a welding job. I'll let it get considerably worse before I go to that effort though

Any advice on the best way to slow it down?

Originally Posted by gwales

Thanks for sharing, and no apologies necessary, you have the credentials!

There are so many products promising the earth with rust conversion and inhibition that you start to get sucked in to the notion of a quick fix from a bottle. I was getting close to purchasing RustBullet to try and arrest the rust on the rear arch.

I suspect with the inner and outer rear wings rusting from within the join inside the arch that I am not going to easily repair that without a welding job. I'll let it get considerably worse before I go to that effort though

Any advice on the best way to slow it down?

Maybe try and inject some waxoyily stuff between the inner and outer wing. Maybe try to do it from inside the car, i could imagine that you would be able to access the area if you remove the subwoofer.

Originally Posted by gwales

Any advice on the best way to slow it down?

Sure, but depends on how much time you want to donate to the project and where the problem is.

If it is easily accessible (as the inner lip of the arch is, then you should buy a wire brush attachment for a drill (you do own a drill I assume ) such as this one and after removing appropriate bits of componentry such as wheel arch liners, screen wash bottle, coolant header tank, wheel, whatever, GENTLY remove the rust from the affected surface down to bare metal. The benefit of this metal is that you are not introducing a different metal (so no galvanic effects) and you are not introducing water (wet & dry). If you can't see the area, this method is good because it is quick, but if it is a cosmetic surface (e.g. outside of front wing) then you may want to consider wet and dry if very slight, or the above, and the some car bodywork filler, then wet and dry. You may also be able to buy sandable primers, where you would use the drill brush method, spray/fill the wholes with sandable primer, and then wet and dry smooth.

Then if you use some Jenolite painted over the bare metal surface, this will remove any traces of rust you cannot see. The main ingredient in this product is phosphoric acid (safety equipment please, esp. glasses), which reacts with the iron oxide to form iron phosphate. Yes, the acid will also react with the bare iron, but at room(ish) temperature, the reaction is so slow (almost non-existent over the timescale here), it is the rust that will be removed first. After a couple of minutes, wipe the phosphoric acid residue off with a dry rag. You can then also use a rag slightly soaked in meths to wipe down the area for a proper clean.

After this, the hair dryer comes out to ensure the surface is dry (don't do this whilst it's raining or about to rain).


Next, use a zinc-based primer (Halfrauds do one that is O.K.) following instructions on the can, then paint, then lacquer. Hopefully you will be treating an area that no one usually sees, so and exact colour match is not essential, and importantly, cheaper.


You must complete all of these steps in one go, as any time the metal is left unprotected, it will just be rusting again and you will be painting over the top of rust and sealing in moisture. You can miss out any of the above steps, but each one you miss out will seriously degrade the performance of the coating you are applying. Something like a wheel arch inner as have been mentioned on this thread could be done really well on two wheels, on a Sunday for about £30 max. Primer, paint and lacquer £5 each. Jenolite £8 for 500ml. £2.50 for drill brush. Meths £1.99 anywhere.

P.M. me any questions if you like. I am sad, and am more than happy to provide advice on this issue. I also have the benefit of the experience of actually doing this on nearly the whole front end on my 145, which had began to rust on every joint, seam, edge and spot weld.

I see that a lot of people are mentioning difefrent/similar techniques on how to remove the problem but nobody realy mentioed what needs to be done in order to stop the problem occuring again. My understanding is that the arch liner design is crap so i think it would worth modifying the edge that keeps cutting into the wing. Maybe adding a rubber bead accross the length of the liner?

I think this is a damn good and informative thread, maybe it should be stickied?

I am thinking the only way to prevent this from reoccurring is to trim back the wheel arch liner by about 5mm in the offending areas and fitting a sacrificial strip of some kind to the inside of the wing (sticky back aluminium tape?), it has to be attached to the wing as fitting anything to the wheel arch liner mixed with grit over time will still ware through the paint on the wing, plus I think this would need to be done regardless of whether the wing is being replaced or not as it will only be a mater of time before a new wing rusts through in the same place.