LSD Group order ?

Originally Posted by jozza

So am i right in assuming that there may be some machining involved to get these torsen lsd's to configure for our Alfa's?

I'm assuming/hoping from Hobbes' earlier post that installation for 2.5 and 3.2 variants is the same (i.e. no machining required):

...The garage tells me there are no compatibility issues in the installation between the 2.5 and 3.2...

Can anyone confirm? I'm a little anxious as to whether I can trust an Irish outfit to install the Quaife unit properly (admittedly I haven't spoken to TB's recommendation, Alasta Autos, yet).

Supposedly it installs same way as a regular Diff. My usual garage is not very keen on taking on the job..

Anyway i got this reply from Quaife just the other day:

Fitting one of our diffs is the same as replacing a standard diff. It does require the gearbox to be dismantled, but is no more complicated than that? If they have replaced a standard diff then they will have no problem, if not they would probably require a workshop manual from Alfa?

Originally Posted by Peter K

Supposedly it installs same way as a regular Diff. My usual garage is not very keen on taking on the job..

Anyway i got this reply from Quaife just the other day:

Fitting one of our diffs is the same as replacing a standard diff. It does require the gearbox to be dismantled, but is no more complicated than that? If they have replaced a standard diff then they will have no problem, if not they would probably require a workshop manual from Alfa?

Cheers Peter. I may be able to persuade the local specialist based on that info. His main fear was that some preconfiguration, and hence specialist tools, would be required (something about preload settings?). Sounds like it slots in without any great fuss

Black and White in Newbury quoted a very sensible amount to me to fit the diff, as they are 99% sure replacing the diff is not an engine-out job.

There is no machining or setup required for a Quaiffe diff, it's a sealed unit, it's not too picky about what oil you use either - though given the issues some GTA's have had with planetary gears using the highest quality oil possible is a good plan - it makes a big difference. Setup of a diff is required for a clutch-type, the Quaiffe just slots in - I've fitted one myself to a race car, and that means it is VERY easy!

Thanks Jywatt.

I passed all the above info to the local Alfa specialist and it seems likely he will install it for me...provided he can find time to do it (probably some time in September).

I'm assuming this group order idea is dead so I'll probably go ahead with an individual purchase in a week or two. By my calculations the price is 1,120 EUR/775.00 GBP (incl VAT, excluding P/P) - expensive, but still a lot cheaper than the AD unit (and maintenance free). I'm guessing installation will be ~8hrs (500 EUR) on top of that.
According to an earlier post by Jwyatt, a group order would bring this down to 895EUR/620GBP (incl VAT, excluding P/P) - a very worthwhile saving of 225EUR/155GBP.

I think it will be better alround if we each buy them directly from Quaife. I could sense problems with warranty issues in a group buy.. This way, each of us has a place to go if something is wrong.

I might not be able to get it done though..My garage won't do it, as they are having doubts to how much work it requires to get it in there..As it turns out, the price of changing a complete gearbox with diff, is less then it would cost to change a diff alone. So as i have been told, the garages never changes the diff, but rather a complete gearbox,

The LSD i already got installed in my other car, was done by a different (non autorized)garage while the engine and gearbox was not yet installed, and i definatly do not want any other garage then my usual to mess with the new GTA.

What we really need, is someone with actual experience in fitting these units to give us the bare facts. That would be most helpful!

I'd love to be able to help in terms of getting one and having it fitted, but finances preclude that for now. I'll hopefully get one in next year.

Oh, and if you want one, hurry - I was at Le Mans with my Quaiffe friend and he said they have very few alfa 2.5/3.2 units in stock and need to make a new batch!

Quick update on this.
I ordered a Quaife LSD a few weeks ago and it arrived promptly (bill came to EUR1232).
My intention was to have TI Autos install the diff but Gerry Campbell was just to busy to do it any time soon. I left it into Alasta Autos a few days ago. Just got a call from the chief engineer to say the gearbox casing cracked while they were extracting one of the bolts. Apparently, these can be problematical and often require a rethread; in his experience, however, the case has never cracked like this.

I'm left with two choices now. Either get a new gearbox, or strip/rebuild the existing gearbox and fit a new casing. Both involve similar expense. The latter perhaps is more risky, so I've decided on a new gearbox. I was kind of expecting/hoping the garage would be insured for incidents like this and that they would incur the extra expense involved (the car is outside its warranty period). Not so, apparently. Do I have any comeback in a situation like this? E.g., could/should I seek compensation based on negligence? Are our cars, in general, left for servicing at our own risk? I was given an initial estimate of EUR500 to install the diff. Now I'm facing a bill of up to EUR3000.

Have to say I'm somewhat regretting my decision to mess with a perfectly good car .

What a mess, really sorry to hear it... I have been down the same road though, modifications that mess up things. But you continue to make new mods nervertheless, strange isn't it?

I think you should try to at least split the bill with the workshop, after all it was them who cracked the casing, not you.

This is very bad news! I almost feel part responsible for bringing you into this mess.

Can't say that i have been in a situation like the one you are currently in, but it seems to me that the garage should, without a question fully compensate you. I don't even see how they can escape it? Maybe my sense of reality is warped

I would forget about fitting that LSD, and tell them "just fix my car back to how it was when you got it!" And i would be mighty upset with the fact that they broke it too!

@PeterK, Please don't feel bad, I take full responsibility for the decision on the LSD. It's something I've contemplated since I bought the car 4 yrs ago.

Since a new gearbox is going in I may as well get the LSD installed; installation will be much easier with the gearbox out of the car. I spoke to an Alfa specialist and he felt the garage was, regrettably, within their rights to charge me in such circumstances. The owner has agreed to look at labour costs for me once the final bill has been tallied. The garage in general has a very good reputation, and, to be fair, the work was carried out by their chief engineer (also the owner).

I suppose it will be all forgotten once the work is completed satisfactorily. However, it's something to bear in mind for anyone considering a similar modification - well worth warning the mechanic/engineer beforehand about the fragile casing.

This is terrible news.How can you be sure his method for diff replacement was undertaken as per proper procedure.?It seems to me that cracking a casing would require some serious forces.

I'll be taking a look at the damage later today. That will at least confirm that the casing has cracked. I'm not mechanically-experienced enough to assess whether any negligence/incompetence could have been involved, or whether it was just bad luck on my/their part (or perhaps even faulty workmanship in the fabrication/assembly). To be frank, it's the second time I'll be leaving this garage with a larger bill that expected (for unscheduled work), so I can't help but harbour some doubts about what happened. Having said that, others will vouch for the garage's competence and honesty. Hopefully, they will be give me a decent discount on the labour.

It just seems odd that a proffessional mechanic can break your car and you end up paying for it....If this is the case, then where is the limit? They can make a living doing this type of stunts..!

Bmof can you take a photo?

The chap concerned had reinstalled my new AD LSD several months ago without issues so you would have thought he should be familiar with the procedure for GTAs.
He would have reinstalled LSDs for tons of different types of cars too.

I honestly don't know how easy this is to happen, but you would expect some cost sharing at least..
i.e. if the bolt was stubborn wouldn't you apply some spray which helps loosen it etc.

I am a bit suprised that the casing could crack though while opening a bolt, does this not seem unusual?
Perhaps there was a weakness?

Maybe some mechanic could shed light on how easy it is or isn't to do this? (Where Hoygs? )

Sorry TB, I didn't take a camera with me. As a memento, I took a small piece of the casing that had broken away; I'll get a pic of that later (I've attached a few pics of the diff itself). The crack occurred at the join of the diff casing and the gearbox casing. It's a fairly inocuous looking crack so it seems an awful waste of a gearbox (perhaps it will show up on ebay in the near future ).

The engineer had mentioned before that he regularly installs diffs in Jeep Cherokees, so it's not for lack of experience. I suppose it's possible there was an underlying weakness in this particular casing (some kind of alloy, the bolt itself being steel).
I get the feeling he's going to be stingy with any discount. He mentioned a discount on the gearbox itself (~10%, gosh thanks!), but when I broached the subject of labour costs his eyes glazed over. Unfortunately, I left my 'angry eyes' at home and let his sweet talk wash over me like so much syrup; it's not easy to remonstrate with someone you've got to know (and respect) quite well.

I run my GTA on a relatively tight budget, and make sacrifices elsewhere to keep it running sweetly , so stuff like this is painful, and hard to justify. I sometimes wonder are GTA owners seen as easy pickings to pad a garage's profits, perhaps to compensate for low margins elsewhere. It's back to Gerry Campbell after this anyway.

It sounds like you are already over it, which is a very admirable approach i must say. Well done m8! If you sense this is the best way forward, then thats the way to go for sure.

Hope things go smoothly from here on, and i hope it will be worth it for you in the end.

I for one am looking forward to your first Road Report with huge anticipation!

best of luck
Peter

Will the gearbox not weld? Saves buying another...

wrinx

Cheers Peter. I try to take these things on the chin and, if possible, look for a silver lining (perhaps the gearbox was close to failure anyway and I'm saving money in the long run, or something like that ). If it was a genuine accident on his part then I have to see things from his point of view also. Really, we mess with performance cars like the GTA at our own risk.

Originally Posted by wrinx

Will the gearbox not weld? Saves buying another...

I just put that suggestion to the engineer. Apparently, he has tried unsuccessfully to do this before on several occasions. The porous nature of the particular alloy used makes successful welding v. difficult, if not impossible.

It is very difficult to weld casted alu..

After a few more delays, I finally went to pick up the car this morning. On Monday I had filed a complaint with the Irish motoring body SIMI. I basically wanted to get their advice in respect of liability, but they weren't prepared to discuss it with me. Instead, I had to fill out a formal complaint form which they would forward to the garage, after which they would wait 10 days for a response. In the complaint I suggested as a compromise that the garage bear half the extra labour costs, and perhaps offer a better discount on the gearbox (I had earlier in the week received some useful advice on an Irish forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2054986363). Coincidentally and conveniently, the SIMI letter arrived while I was in the garage. The owner/mechanic was very understanding and basically let me suggest a discount that I would find satisfactory (the total bill was less than I expected anyway).

While test-driving the car the night before the mechanic felt the engine was moving slightly under cornering. I had mentioned a knocking under cornering and suggested it might be suspension related. Fair dues to him for diagnosing a worn engine top mount (or, rather, a connecting part that looks a bit like an arb droplink?); apparently these wear out quickly in the V6 engines (one of the bushings had visibly shredded when he removed it). Interestingly, while carefully extracting the steel bolt from the alloy mounting (with me watching) the bolt got stuck, as with the gearbox casing. When he finally got it free the threading on the bolt was badly damaged. I have to say I was more sympathetic to his point-of-view on seeing this happen. Evidently, there's a design flaw here on Alfa's part.

With a new gearbox, new clutch (well worn apparently) and limited-slip differential, my car is better than ever before. It really is a sensational package now - having taken it home the night before, the discerning owner/mechanic was equally enthusiastic about it. With the uprated suspension and LSD, it corners like it's on rails; what a shame Alfa didn't release the car like this. The car will hug a kerb all the way around, understeer virtually having been eliminated, and allows you to be more aggressive at corner exits. There are a variety of slow and fast bends close to my home and the difference with the LSD is very marked. So far, I haven't noticed any increase in torque steer; perhaps that will become evident on poorer surfaces. I'll report back in a couple of weeks with further observations, if any.

Last weekend, my brother was over from England with his new E46 M3. I can see why the journos rave about this car. It's balance and poise around corners is a joy to behold; you can be much more aggressive on entry, knowing that the even weight distribution will allow you to keep the car pointing in the right direction. More to the point, the M3 sets the bar with which to compare the GTA's handling; the reality of FWD understeer really hits home after driving an M3. While it's still not a match for the M3 in many respects, the LSD and coil-over suspension help the GTA to close the gap substantially.

I'm normally quite a conservative driver but, today, the temptation to keep pushing the GTA was just irresistible. I have a feeling I'll be asking a lot more from the car from now on.

Finally, kudos to Alasta Autos for doing a great job with my car. I'm sure I'll be back in the future.

Really nice to hear that this is heading in a positive direction so far! I'm surprised how quickly you got the new gearbox though

You say that you havn't noticed any increased torque steer, but should there not be a noticeable decrease in torque steer?