***Definitive 147/156 GTA brake upgrade thread***

I bought a late 2003 156 GTA from a dealership a month ago.
It hasn't had the brakes upgraded yet, but at the same time I haven't had any problems with them at all.
It has the multispoke alloys.

The dealership salesman confirmed they'd do the upgrade if the brakes warped within a short time of me having it.

My question is:
Am I likely to have the problem later if the discs or pads are replaced again?
It'd done 13k miles when I got it.

G

you may be lucky as many others have yet to suffer problems with their 305 brakes. Mine were dreadful hence the upgrade. But once yours has been upgraded (if needed) then I reckon you should have no problems from there on.

Yep. Mine's on its 3rd set in 20K miles since the upgrade... they can still go bad.

I did get a useful tip in this very forum: don't be lazy and hold the car on the foot brake at a junction, especially if you've just braked to standstill from motorway speeds. I.e. use the handbrake whenever possible; the logic being that the discs were failing because the relatively large surface area of the upgraded pads in contact with the disc was causing differential cooling across the disc, hence the warping.

Makes engineering sense and so far seems to be working.

Having had my 156 GTA for 8 trouble-free months I have started experiencing the 305mm brake warp problem!

I replaced the standard (warped) discs for some drilled and grooved versions and everything was fine - for 3 weeks! Now I'm back to square one

So I today took the car for it's 35,000 mile service at an Alfa specialist and got talking to the chief mechanic.
He reckons the problem is something to do with the hubs not being exactly square with the discs - a problem that even Porsche have experienced. This creates a natural "wobble" that becomes worse as the discs are heated up through normal use. The solution (as apparently all Porsche dealers are equipped to do) is to grind the discs whilst they're on the hubs.
Not entirely sure if this makes sense, any thoughts people?
My '02 GTA is out of it's warranty now, so I expect I won't get any sympathy from the local dealer if I ask for the 330mm upgrade (which my mechanic says is basically the brake setup from the 166).

Thinpig, what pads are you running? I went through 3 sets of standard discs and pads until I ground the last set of warped discs and fitted Ferodo DS2500 pads. Problems gone.

I'm using standard pads on uprated discs. The theory was that as standard Alfa tend to use hard pads on soft discs (helping create the warping problem), so I replaced the "soft" discs with harder grooved versions - thinking it would solve the problem. (This all under the reccomendation of the guy at EB Spares).

Have just found out today that my local Mitsubishi garage do the "skim the discs whilst on the car" thing. Will make enquiries!

I think this has a lot of truth in it:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

Interesting reading - although I don't think in my case the problem is created by holding the car still on hot brake discs.

However, maybe the Ferodo pads combined with re-skimmed discs could solve my problem. Presumably the Ferodo pads do not "deposit" onto the discs like standard pads.

Going to have to ponder my options...

Alfa UK have accepted that my car is within the chasis range for the issue, but are saying that because I haven't had the problem within 10k miles they don't feel they need to offer the upgrade.

My argument has been from the start that cars are in fact getting this problem later in their lives, and several of you have indicated that you've had this problem with new brakes and pads fitted recently.

I want to declare precedent, with reference.

Could anyone that's had this issue with a car after the first few thousand miles, or had this problem when, or even though, new discs and pads were fitted, please post their case numbers or registrations,
or email/pm them to me.

I know it's a bit to ask, but it will save me thousands if I can get this pushed through under warranty.

Thanks!

G

I thought you didnt want the upgrade? On the other thread you made it sound like you would be OK paying for it.

for the record, ive just had mine done FOC including change of wheels in the 3rd year of dealer warranty.

Who on earth wouldn't WANT the upgrade!?
I absolutely want it, but probably wouldn't want it if I had to pay for it.

I was just saying that I could understand their point of view in not offering it.
Having to argue the same points you put across to me in that discussion, with them, though, has made me change my view a bit more.

I now do believe that if there is a chance of the failure happenning at all in the lifetime of the car then the upgrade should be offered for free so long as the car is within warranty.

Would you mind sending me your case number or reg number so that I can use it as precedent with them, too?

The more the better!

Thanks

G

no problem - ill PM you the details

Do they have black ones......

Originally Posted by T07

Do they have black ones......

NO!!!!!

Originally Posted by zbenio

(...) Could tell me this is 305 or 330mm brakes?

Originally Posted by Andy G

what years your car?

Originally Posted by zbenio

(...) It's not my car... yet ...it's 2004.

it's already mine
discs are 330mm (afaik).

I have an 04 147 GTA with 305mm brakes, I have had no problems with them over the last 8 months of owning the car. I have touched on the subject of the brake upgrade with my original dealership and they didn’t even know there was an issue with the brakes on GTA’s and point blankly refused discuss upgrading under the warranty.
Since this conversation the dealership has now become an approved service centre and with a new Alfa dealership opening up right next door they have sent me a letter offering discounted rates on parts and servicing.
I’m therefore wondering if now’s a good time to purchase the parts required for the upgrade (I have teledials so don’t require new multispokes). I shall keep these parts until I require new brakes (still over 50% left on the pads on the car now). I can’t imagine that the labour cost of the upgrade is any more than the labour cost of having new 305mm discs and pads fitted? Yes/No?
I know some of you think I’d be mad to pay for something that really should be free, but I’m thinking this may be the best opportunity I have of getting the upgrade. I also think it will make the car easier to sell the car with the upgrade when I’m done with it and perhaps for more money?
I have also read somewhere that there is now a larger spacesaver wheel available that will fit 330mm brakes. Any one know the part number please?



F0077362692 BRAKE PADS X1
F00773626276 CALIPER X1
F00773626277 CALIPER X1
F0051733051 BRAKE DISC X2
F0060693782 PIPE X1
F0060693783 PIPE X1
F0060693576 BRACKET X1
F0060693575 BRACKET X1

This reply reminded me that I should really update people here on how my plight went.

The short answer is: Not well.

I wrote a letter to head office and got a rejection.

Here's what the letter looked like:

Dear *** *****,
Firstly let me thank you for the time you spent on the phone with me today. I appreciate you must be busy, so I’m grateful you took time to look at my case.
Though I believe there was no misunderstanding in the conversation, I’d like to express my situation and concerns in writing to give you an opportunity to take them to the technical department as something tangible to which you can get answers, as you suggested. I would also like to express my understanding of the situation so any misconceptions I have can be corrected.

I bought a 2003 Alfa Romeo 156 GTA, registration **53***, in March this year from the Sidlow Gatwick Alfa Romeo dealership. The car was in good condition, and had travelled around13,000 miles, with one owner. Before buying the car I specifically enquired about whether the brakes had been changed to the larger 330 sets. The salesman, *******, told me that if there was a recall for the car then the car would have been refitted at it’s service. At the time I was unaware that this was an upgrade offered to the customer in case of warping, just that there were warping issues with the earlier cars using the 305 set of brakes. I was particularly keen on the car because it had not been driven very hard at all, and was well cared for.

Shortly after buying the car I first started to enquire about the brake change, when it became clear to me, through discussion with other GTA owners through the various owners/drivers clubs, that the brakes on my car were still 305mm (measuring them was the most obvious indication of this, obviously).

My driving concern is that if the car experiences disc warping then I may find it hard to get the upgrade done free of charge, especially out of warranty.
The car has been bedded in extremely slowly, and probably not driven under pressure until it came into my ownership.
This means that whilst the current discs and pads may well not develop the warping issue, when the discs or pads are changed in the future I would suddenly encounter the issue which caused the upgrade to be offered in the first place.
This might not happen until the brake discs were changed, which is very infrequently, and would be well outside my dealership warranty.

The service manager at the local dealership has told me that technical have said that this upgrade was only offered to cars which have developed the problem within the 10,000 miles or so. Many examples have been citied to me where the upgrade has been carried out free of charge at the behest of the owner without any warping issue currently affecting the car, but simply at the acknowledgement that the upgrade was to fix a problem that affected cars within a chassis range with new brake pads and discs, and that at some point in it’s life these cars would be in that situation.
Many examples have also been cited where the upgrade was required later in the life of the vehicle (at the same age as mine, in fact), when the car had pads or discs changed at around 30,000 miles; This supporting the fears of those that wished to get the upgrade in case of later woes. These examples are both historical and current, one of which was performed at Perry’s of Amersham only two weeks ago, free of charge, on a car of 30,000 miles in its third year of warranty.
The cases of the vehicles **03*** and **03*** are examples of where these cases apply.

On the former example the brake discs and pads were replaced with new ones several times recently in an attempt to solve the warping, as has happened with many GTA owners, before the upgrade was carried out. This clearly demonstrates that the problem was not caused by a faulty batch of pads or discs that have now been replaced and are now no longer used, as was mooted to me by the service department of the local dealership.

I only raise example of precedent in order to hopefully pre-answer some questions, if they were raised.
The case in hand is my car, and whether or not it would suffer from a brake defect outside of warranty that could have been fixed inside warranty, specifically if the discs are later changed due to normal wear, causing new sets to be fitted which would continually warp, or if the pads were changed and the new pad material caused warping in the existing discs because of a harder compound brake pad (another suggestion mooted by the service department about what caused the upgrade to be created in the first place).
If the upgrade exists to solve a problem with GTAs in my chassis range, then why would my car not suffer from it, and why should I not benefit from a free of charge upgrade that would have been offered in warranty if the first driver were, well, a maniac?

Since I raised this issue originally a new issue has arisen with my existing brakes, completely separate from the warping. When I use the brakes firmly during a hard drive, at the end of the drive the brake callipers will make a loud creaking noise when the brake pedal is applied. This issue has been reported by other GTA owners too.
The dealership service department took the callipers apart and could not find the cause.
They have now stated that the callipers will need replacing under warranty. Having discussed this with the service manager, we agreed to not take this action until the final result of this request for an upgrade is known, since it would mean changing the callipers twice, for no reason, and I’d prefer to save you the money. I definitely don’t want to cost the company any more money than necessary; But at the same time I don’t want to be faced with an expensive upgrade bill in two years time that could or should have been dealt with under warranty.

Thank you for your time, I look forward to hearing your response.

Yours sincerely

@netcom - there isnt a larger spacesaver. Alfa supply a can of tyre weld and an electric pump witht he upgrade kit, but you dont really need it - Keep your spacesaver and if you do geta puncture on the front you just have to put the spacesaver on the back, and then move one of the back wheels to the front.

Originally Posted by ukoldschool

@netcom - there isnt a larger spacesaver. Alfa supply a can of tyre weld and an electric pump witht he upgrade kit, but you dont really need it - Keep your spacesaver and if you do geta puncture on the front you just have to put the spacesaver on the back, and then move one of the back wheels to the front.

Thanks, thought I'd read somewhere that there was....... duno where it was now. I agree with your previous post about staying away from the tyre weld stuff.

My name is Derik, I am from Johannesburg South-Africa and are still experiencing the same problem. The upgrade was done on my 156GTA but warping starts everytime within 5000KM. The discs were replaced twice already with the new spec and now has done 4000KM since last replacement and the warping is back. It seems that the local ALFA dealers are trying to replace untill the garentee period is over and then it is the owners problem. I also experience ECU problems. They tend to run away from their responsibilities.

Derik, I initially had the same strategy from Alfa in Sweden. See my post above for one solution to the warp problem. This was done by Alfa without cost for me.

Originally Posted by Derik

The upgrade was done on my 156GTA but warping starts everytime within 5000KM. The discs were replaced twice already with the new spec and now has done 4000KM since last replacement and the warping is back. It seems that the local ALFA dealers are trying to replace untill the garentee period is over and then it is the owners problem. I also experience ECU problems. They tend to run away from their responsibilities.

6000 miles away and it's the exact same thing
And if the dealer ever offers to skim them for you refuse; and buy them a book on elementary metallurgy. They tried it with mine and (no surprises) made it twice as bad.

My January 2006 discs are now on the way out after 4000 miles of not very heavy use.

Think it's time for an Autodelta upgrade.