330mm Brake Upgrade

Well.. on stock 156/147's, when you upgrade the 284mm system to 305's all they recommend is an upgrade of pads for the rear..

On my TS, I got Ferodo ds2500 on the stock rear calipers, and some crappy red dot pads on the 305 brembo front.. ive found that on full braking and when the brakes are well heated(talking trackdriving here)
then the car becomes twitchy!. Feels very unsafe actually..! This problem springs from the back brakes having too much power.

I would have thought the ABS system would compensate for something like this. but it sure feels like it is not doing a proper job!

Under normal driving conditions, the car feels well balanced, but, as the brakes heat up, the Ferodo works better and better compared to the Red Dot pads, and as a result it becomes twitchy. Untill i get my Ferodo pads for the front, my car is actually very limited on the track.. Amazing how big a difference a set of pads can do!

So like you say Trailbraker.. you really need to think about how you set up the distribution front to rear!

I'd guess (standard very non expert disclaimer! ) that it would be the Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD) that would control the brake bias behaviour rather than the ABS. I think once the ABS is cutting on on the rears the rear will be twitchy, since you have no additional cornering grip available - the braking is taking any additional grip available.
I would think that the EBD should be able to prevent getting to this scenario of ABS locking the rears before the front.

I'm pretty sure that having different pads front and back isn't normally a good idea for any brand of pad since you want the same temperature/perfromance curve for both front and back, exactly as you describe.

I have the GT 3.2 V6 callipers on my GTA, the callipers look bigger than AlfaDublins ones so I am not sure if the GT 3.2 ones are the same as the upgraded GTAs ones, or AlfaDublins ones are just another variant.
I have only done a few track days with the newer brakes but my initial impression is that its slightly harder to bring the tail out intentionally under trailbraking, but have admirable stability.
At the moment I'm happy to keep the rears standard while I experiment with using left foot braking to create additional rear brake bias as needed.
My thinking about having my current "safe" slightly front biased setup is that if I overdo the left foot braking too much that just relaxing the throttle will cause the bias to move forward which will stabilize the car.

Now - why didn't they teach us this stuff at school!

TB

Originally Posted by Peter K

I would have thought the ABS system would compensate for something like this. but it sure feels like it is not doing a proper job!

Under normal driving conditions, the car feels well balanced, but, as the brakes heat up, the Ferodo works better and better compared to the Red Dot pads, and as a result it becomes twitchy. Untill i get my Ferodo pads for the front, my car is actually very limited on the track.. Amazing how big a difference a set of pads can do!

So like you say Trailbraker.. you really need to think about how you set up the distribution front to rear!

Originally Posted by Trailbraker

I'd guess (standard very non expert disclaimer! ) that it would be the Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD) that would control the brake bias behaviour rather than the ABS.

It does, but if you can get a setup which is more naturally balanced it will take the load off of the EBD system and feel more natural to drive.

Originally Posted by Trailbraker

I'm pretty sure that having different pads front and back isn't normally a good idea for any brand of pad since you want the same temperature/performance curve for both front and back, exactly as you describe.

The ideal for a fwd car is to have higher friction pads on the front and lower on the back, i.e.: DS2500 front, DS-Performance rear.
On a rwd or 4wd you want the same front & rear.

Originally Posted by Trailbraker

I have the GT 3.2 V6 callipers on my GTA, the callipers look bigger than AlfaDublins ones so I am not sure if the GT 3.2 ones are the same as the upgraded GTAs ones, or AlfaDublins ones are just another variant.

The V6 GT uses the same calipers as the 2004-on GTA.

Thanks DaveC, informative as ever.

My calipers (shown below) obviously look differerent to AlfaDublins,
so I am now curious as to what exactly I have

It is possible that I misunderstood Autodelta when they said that mine use the same pads as the GT 3.2 (which is defintely true), but maybe the calipers themselves are different.

Andy, (if you have nothing better to do) could you pick which type is closest to yours in the pictures below?
The difference between the two is most obvious if you look at the distance between the "nipple" (or nut) at the top of the raised tier of the caliper ..and the furthest point of the end of the caliper.
Its approx 30mm in mine and a few mm in AlfaDublins.
Cheers,
TB

Originally Posted by David C

It does, but if you can get a setup which is more naturally balanced it will take the load off of the EBD system and feel more natural to drive.

The ideal for a fwd car is to have higher friction pads on the front and lower on the back, i.e.: DS2500 front, DS-Performance rear.
On a rwd or 4wd you want the same front & rear.


The V6 GT uses the same calipers as the 2004-on GTA.

Great you bring it up TB, because i was wondering the same thing.

I started a thread a few weeks ago asking if the 305 mm and 330mm are identical.. if they were, then i wanted to fit larger disks from the start..but concesus was that they where different.. then looking at AlfaDublins, i thought they looked exactly like the regular 305mm calipers

The Brembo calipers on the 330mm setup are bigger than the Brembo calipers on the 305mm.
FYI the DS2500 pads for the 330mm calipers are almost twice the price of DS2500 for the 305mm calipers!

The 330mm Brembo calipers are the same as have been fitted to 166 V6 for some time.

All hope may not be lost for you Peter..

If AlfaDublins calipers actually are the exactly same as those that come as standard on older GTA's with 305mm discs, (and I dont personally know that they are) maybe they also work with a different type of disc such as that he is using ?
AlfaDublin referred to a floating disc, and in the picture it sort of looks like these discs dont extend inwards as much as the standard 330mm discs?
Maybe this allows the use of the smaller caliper with "special" 330mm dics? I'm sure Alfa Dublin could clarify by provinding the part number or something for you?

RE my calipers - I had a look at the old pads that came off my calipers recently to try and see what type of pad they had.
Stamped on the pads is "Ferodo 4446" but not sure is this the relevent number


TB

Originally Posted by Peter K

Great you bring it up TB, because i was wondering the same thing.

I started a thread a few weeks ago asking if the 305 mm and 330mm are identical.. if they were, then i wanted to fit larger disks from the start..but concesus was that they where different.. then looking at AlfaDublins, i thought they looked exactly like the regular 305mm calipers

Hope I dont confuse matters here, and I know you're talking about calipers, but.....Trailbraker, my GTA has the 330mm discs and my calipers look like yours do, but my discs are not drilled or grooved in any way, have you put your own discs on or were they fitted by Alfa?

No confusion PR - You have answered my question above - thanks!
Everything makes sense now

The "330mm" calipers that come on GT 3.2v6 are the same as those on the newer 156 GTAs and you have confrimed that these look like mine.

The discs on my car are the upgraded Autodelta "GTA High Performance cross drilled dics". BTW these discs work very well so far.

What had confused things slightly is that I think a few of us misunderstood AlfaDublins post to say that his brakes were the upgraded ones. I was pretty sure that I had the GT 3.2v6 brakes but wasn't sure after AlfaDublins post, but now I'm sure again

I think these brakes overall are awesome, especially if you have upgraded braided brake pipes you get really excellent pedal feel which really helps in using all this stopping power in a controlled manner.
I haven't seen the four plumes of smoke from each corner of my car after many hot laps with these - unlike with the warp prone standard 305mm discs..

I got the rear discs upgraded too (same size as originals), and these cross drilled discs definitely make a difference.

BTW AlfaDublin, I'm sure your front discs/calipers are more than sufficient given that your car is a lot lighter than a 156 GTA, especially since you stripped it!

Cheers,
TB

Originally Posted by PR

Hope I dont confuse matters here, and I know you're talking about calipers, but.....Trailbraker, my GTA has the 330mm discs and my calipers look like yours do, but my discs are not drilled or grooved in any way, have you put your own discs on or were they fitted by Alfa?

BTW Peter I warped two sets of the standard 305mm discs on the track with a standard GTA previously, without trying so hard to do so! The weather was a little warm perhaps, and Mondello is notoriously hard on brakes.

Assuming you have already bought the 305mm calipers - I'd suggest at a minimum getting upgraded discs (e.g. cross drilled or grooved), if the theory you are investigating of using larger discs with the 305mm callipers is flawed.

In honesty though Alfa seriously underestimated the extended Braking power required for such a fast car - that engine is just superb!

How near is the launch date of your new baby anyway?

TB

Hi Trailbraker.The Brembo calipers came off of a 156GTA that had the 305mm discs fitted.It was recalled for the bigger discs and calipers so I took the calipers and 305mm discs off of my mechanic friend in Airton Motors for next to nothing .

The Brembo floating discs that I am running with are from Brembo Racing division.They are ventilated and grooved 325 x 26mm thick floating discs.They are attached with 8 small titanium nuts and bolts to a custom made billet bell housing.

My mechanic ordered the discs from Brembo directly and his c.n.c and c.a.d machines made the custom suspension uprights and billet bells to suit my car.The bell itself is then bolted onto the hub of the car like a normal front disc would be bolted.

I nearly put myself through the front windscreen when I tapped on brakes hard the other day to test them out.Thats how good they are .I now have Race Logic traction control fitted too.You should think about getting that fitted to yur 156 GTA for the trackdays in Mondello.

The Race Logic system is hard wired in to the cars E.C.U and the A.B.S brake sensors and u set the traction control system up with a dash mounted controller.U can set it up at the twist of a button for gravel,or wet roads of frost/ice or muddy conditions.It cuts the power to the front wheels if they try to break traction or spin up with the road or race track.

If u accelerate really hard in 1st gear or 2nd gear with the Traction Control switched on ,then u wont be able to spin the wheels.You hear the system kicking in to cut the power to the wheels and u accelerate even better/faster than u would do with the wheels spinning up.

It does the same thing if u try to drive too fast around a bend,it cuts the power to the wheels so u cant oversteer off into the gravel or a ditch.U get around the corner faster and safer too.Well worth the money to have it installed.

It works a treat and you wont spin up the front wheels anymore.I might see you in Mondello on July 9th for the next trackday.Thanks

Thanks for the detail on that AlfaDublin, all the confusion is cleared up now

Thanks for the traction control info.
I don't think I have any need for additional traction control in mine at the moment. It has ASR as standard anyway, but I generally leave this off at the track.
The very effective AD LSD I had fitted recently really reduces wheelspin to a minimum both in a straight line and under cornering.
It does this by a mechanical transfer of torque to the outside wheel under cornering rather than a electronic reduction of power (or single wheel braking) to the inside wheel.

I'm not sure were you at the last full international track day but it performed pretty well there - had fun with some M3's

Yup I'll be there on the 9th, unfortunately is it only the smaller National circuit, but defintely will be much easier for you to familiarize yourself with your cars handling / braking as compared to the much trickier International layout.

Good to see your car being let loose at last

TB

Originally Posted by Alfadublin

Hi Trailbraker.The Brembo calipers came off of a 156GTA that had the 305mm discs fitted.

I now have Race Logic traction control fitted too.You should think about getting that fitted to yur 156 GTA for the trackdays in Mondello.

The Race Logic system is hard wired in to the cars E.C.U and the A.B.S brake sensors and u set the traction control system up with a dash mounted controller.U can set it up at the twist of a button for gravel,or wet roads of frost/ice or muddy conditions.It cuts the power to the front wheels if they try to break traction or spin up with the road or race track.

If u accelerate really hard in 1st gear or 2nd gear with the Traction Control switched on ,then u wont be able to spin the wheels.You hear the system kicking in to cut the power to the wheels and u accelerate even better/faster than u would do with the wheels spinning up.

It does the same thing if u try to drive too fast around a bend,it cuts the power to the wheels so u cant oversteer off into the gravel or a ditch.U get around the corner faster and safer too.Well worth the money to have it installed.

It works a treat and you wont spin up the front wheels anymore.I might see you in Mondello on July 9th for the next trackday.Thanks

Thanks Trailbraker.I was at the trackday on Paddies day.I have some pics of your car giving the Beemers a run for their money.Lots of people there were shocked by just how fast a 156 GTA is. .

I will be in Mondello on July 9th but I will proably be on the bike.The car is in the garage having some more work done on it while Im off on my Holidays from this Thursday comming.Dont know if it will be ready for when I get back.I hope so anyway.Thanks again .

P.S - I was at Overdrive in Mondello on Sunday 26th just gone.My mechanic entered me into it so I went as part of his crew.I had a good time and there were some mental cars competing.

Ok,

Custom made suspension uprights.. KEWL!!

@AlfaDublin.. that Race Logic system.. does it require the car already being fitted with a Traction Control system? If not, then it sounds very interesting. Whats the cost involved?

@TB... Going down to pick it up this Saturday God.. i cant wait! I got the Dyno results on it a few days ago.. looks excellent Engine performs above average, so that very promsing.

Originally Posted by Peter K

Ok,

Custom made suspension uprights.. KEWL!!

@AlfaDublin.. that Race Logic system.. does it require the car already being fitted with a Traction Control system? If not, then it sounds very interesting. Whats the cost involved?

@TB... Going down to pick it up this Saturday God.. i cant wait! I got the Dyno results on it a few days ago.. looks excellent Engine performs above average, so that very promsing.

My mechanic fabricated the custom suspension uprights and the custom bell housings for mounting the Brembo discs from blocks of billet aluminium using C.A.D and C.N.C machines and then used a tap and dye machine to drill/thread the mounting/bolt holes.Hes gonna start making up mounting kits so that the standard Alfa 147/156 can use GTA calipers and discs.

I had my Alfas standard ASR button/system riped out and had the Race Logic traction controll system installed.You can adjust/fine tune the traction controll system to suit the type of road or weather conditions u are driving on and in via a controller knob that is dash mounted in the car.You can precisely dial in or dial out wheel spin and grip too.

You can install the Race Logic system into a car with or without an asr button/system.You have to hard wire the Race Logic system into the cars ECU and ABS sensors and fuse system.

Its a great piece of kit,It cost me 1500 euro(about 1000 pounds sterling) to be fitted and set up.

Absolutely no wheel spin at all,no matter how much I try to floor the car in 1st gear off the line,the traction controll kicks in(you actually hear it kicking in and slowing the front wheel speed,it sounds like a very fast/loud ticking clock)exactly the same setup/sound that u see/hear on the F1 cars when their traction control system kicks in.The sound of the traction controll is mad when it kicks in but it is a great piece of kit and worth every cent.Well I think so anyway.

I will post new better pics of the brake calipers and discs attached to the car and the Race Logic traction controll system when i go down to my mechanic to collect her next week.Thanks

Cheers AD, sounds good with a few pics.

I read up on some of the info they supply on Race Logics website.

It works by causing the cylinder to misfire.... What are the Pro/Cons with this type of system?

Originally Posted by Peter K

Cheers AD, sounds good with a few pics.

I read up on some of the info they supply on Race Logics website.

It works by causing the cylinder to misfire.... What are the Pro/Cons with this type of system?

I honestly dont know the answer to that one.Sorry .

I just know that the Race Logic system makes a cool sound when it kicks in and that it works perfectly.I cant get the wheels to break traction and spin up no matter how hard I floor the car in 1st or 2nd gear.Switch off the system and its wheel spin city and massive torque steer.

Heres some pics of me out on track at Mondello Park last Sunday. Somebody else was taking pics of me and my car and they are on another website.
I just had a new billet fuel rail with a twin fuel flow inlet system and fuel pressure regulator system installed.More to follow soon.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92...turbo/car2.jpg

I got a reply from Race Logic:

Peter,

You will find that Racelogic Traction Control will work very well with your car, and you'll be able to push the car much harder than previously.

You will need the six cylinder system (leaving out two of the injector interfaces). These cost £525.00 without launch control or £595.00 with launch control. We also have a new digital adjuster system about to be launched in the next couple of weeks which will retail at £725.00.



If i ever go for the Kompressor, then this system sounds like a must. Great you can actually buy something like that at a relative low cost.