Engine Starting Procedure

[Evo Cymru]

G'day all!

I have finally mamaged to secure myself a lovely 156 GTA (well it needs some work but dont we all!)

Anyway on going over the manual it suggests that on start up you press the clutch? I've never done this with most of my cars and can recall an article on the Maserati 3200 saying this was a big no no as it led to engine probs (Auto Italia Buyers Guide).

What are peoples thoughts?

Oliver

PS The first of probably many questions!

[Captain Slow]

I don't, but the previous own said he did.

[Artermis]

I always have done, owned this car at least two years and always done so, never any issues. not sure exactly as to reasoning behind it but always have done. did it with my GTA too.

[alexgee]

I do it across all my cars.
It reduces the weight/resistance that needs to be turned by the starter. At least that is what my granda told me.

[diathermy]

hmmm.

I always leave car i gear, therefore always depress clutch.

I never heard that before.

[Dr GTA]

I always depress the clutch when starting. Just habit now.

[edward]

nope - can't say I do that.

Don't use engine breaking on hills either!

[Evo Cymru]

Thanks for the replies - just interested to know Alfa's reasoning really?

The Maserati 3200 apparently had a history of wear in the crankshaft thrust washers on the manual cars. The thrust action on the end of the crankshaft from the use of the clutch could cause the thrust washers to fail, leading to accelerated wear of the crankshaft itself. End result replace crankshaft and rebuild the entire engine - ouch! The possibilty of this happening was said to be reduced by not starting the engine with your foot on the clutch ie wait for the oil pressure to build up first.

Might this be the case with the Alfa V6 too? Or does it actually have an advantage?

Interesting!

[Joss]

Nope. Just check its not in ger and start.

[Keithy]

WOT alexgee said!

[generalfranco]

Nope I use it as a normal car!

[jonnybing]

Think this is now standard practice with many new vehicles.
My Mini Countryman will only allow the starter (push button) to work if you depress the clutch first. Same system as in all new BMW's with stop/start function.

[edward]

Would that not just avoid that sometimes embarrassing thing one does occasionally when the car is in gear and you try and start it. Normal when someone like your dad is sat next to you?

[yetyGT]

Originally Posted by alexgee

I do it across all my cars.
It reduces the weight/resistance that needs to be turned by the starter. At least that is what my granda told me.

exactly

[Kristop]

In older cars there was certainly question about resistance but with modern oils and different type of gearboxes I do not see reason to to it any more.
Nowadays it's more about safety reasons to avoid starting the car with gear still on.
I would be more worried about thrust bearings.
Therefore my starting procedure looks like - handbrake on, press the clutch, gear off, release clutch and then start the engine with neutral gear.
This also will avoid freezing the handbrake in winter times. (working it regulary)

[gotcha]

Originally Posted by Evo Cymru

Thanks for the replies - just interested to know Alfa's reasoning really?

The Maserati 3200 apparently had a history of wear in the crankshaft thrust washers on the manual cars. The thrust action on the end of the crankshaft from the use of the clutch could cause the thrust washers to fail, leading to accelerated wear of the crankshaft itself. End result replace crankshaft and rebuild the entire engine - ouch! The possibilty of this happening was said to be reduced by not starting the engine with your foot on the clutch ie wait for the oil pressure to build up first.

Might this be the case with the Alfa V6 too? Or does it actually have an advantage?

Interesting!

This is exactly the reason, when the clutch is depressed it strongly pulls on the crankshaft and it can wear the thrust washers as there is no oil flow and lubrication at the moment and develop the crank end float.

Sometimes you can feel it with the engine running as well, in neutral and engine at idle revs just depress the clutch and the revs might drop a tiny bit and engine sound may change as well as ECU tries to compensate the load. At this moment you are pressing the crank against the washers and there is a lot of friction and resistance.

If you start in neutral without depressing the clutch the only extra load is turning the freely rotating shaft in the gearbox what stresses the engine much less.

The recommendation to depress clutch is more of a precaution to avoid people starting the engine with gearbox put in gear.

But this is the theory only, I also start the engine while pressing the clutch, its just a habit I cant get rid off even though trying....

[NewAlfisti]

Originally Posted by Evo Cymru

G'day all!

I have finally mamaged to secure myself a lovely 156 GTA (well it needs some work but dont we all!)

Anyway on going over the manual it suggests that on start up you press the clutch? I've never done this with most of my cars and can recall an article on the Maserati 3200 saying this was a big no no as it led to engine probs (Auto Italia Buyers Guide).

What are peoples thoughts?

Oliver

PS The first of probably many questions!

It is not ideal loading the thrust bearling when it is not lubricated and starting the engine this way you accelerate the wear rate rapidly. For this reason i NEVER press the clutch before i start the engine and never hold teh clutch pressed down in traffic lights etc.

[yetyGT]

Originally Posted by gotcha

This is exactly the reason, when the clutch is depressed it strongly pulls on the crankshaft and it can wear the thrust washers as there is no oil flow and lubrication at the moment and develop the crank end float.

Sometimes you can feel it with the engine running as well, in neutral and engine at idle revs just depress the clutch and the revs might drop a tiny bit and engine sound may change as well as ECU tries to compensate the load. At this moment you are pressing the crank against the washers and there is a lot of friction and resistance.

If you start in neutral without depressing the clutch the only extra load is turning the freely rotating shaft in the gearbox what stresses the engine much less.

The recommendation to depress clutch is more of a precaution to avoid people starting the engine with gearbox put in gear.

But this is the theory only, I also start the engine while pressing the clutch, its just a habit I cant get rid off even though trying....

Scientific explanation how wrong my assumption was. Nevertheless in cars with button start you might not be ale to start it without clutch being depressed - e.g. Lexus IS.

[greggers123]

You can't start an Evo IX without depressing the clutch, that was just a normal key-start, habitually I now do the same with the GTA.

Jeep Wranglers are the same.

[greggers123]

Originally Posted by NewAlfisti

It is not ideal loading the thrust bearling when it is not lubricated and starting the engine this way you accelerate the wear rate rapidly. For this reason i NEVER press the clutch before i start the engine and never hold teh clutch pressed down in traffic lights etc.

Lubricated how?

[gotcha]

Originally Posted by greggers123

Lubricated how?

with oil

have a look on them:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...stbearings.jpg

They do have two small grooves for oil. This is the side they face the crank shoulder.

Here they are installed:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...tbearings2.jpg

The oil is pushed out from between the crank bearing and crank journal and gets out through the two small grooves, thus flows between thrust bearing and crank shoulder. As crank rotates, its shoulder that presses against the bearing gets lubricated. If there is no oil flow, the crank will eventually start grinding against the thrust bearings. By this they get thinner and crank can be wiggled axially - it has axial play/end float. Moreover, as the bearing grinds and gets thin, the oil chanels dissapear and the lubrication is geting worse and accelerates the wear.

However, there is always a thin layer of oil on crank and bearing, so even at the moment of start before the oil starts to flow it should protect the surfaces for few seconds, but by pressing them hard against each other by pressing the clutch you are not making their life easier. But again, lets not make it a bigger problem as it is, I think the parts will usually last more than most of us need and crank axial play is not a typical issue of busso V6. Keeping the clutch pressed for more than 15-30 seconds at lights or using a racing clutch with stiff clutch spring will harm much more than presing the clutch at start.

[Henry8601]

Like others have said I think pressing the clutch is intended as a safety procedure which makes it impossible to start it in gear.

I always start without pressing the clutch. Yeah, it might be a little more load on the starter motor, but I would rather that than putting extra axial load on an un-lubricated crankshaft.

[Evo Cymru]

Again thanks for the replies - very interesting!

I havent heard of this wear being an issue with the V6 but was interested in the science behind it all. Will continue to start without the clutch I think!

Oliver

PS Can anyone point me in the direction of a official 156 workshop manaul? Are there any good ones online? Do they come up on Ebay etc at all?

It's a safety thing!! If your driving instuctor was like mine (going back 20 years) he would have instilled into your strating procedure to depress the clutch so as to make sure the car isn't in gear, I remember having to move the gear stick side to side to make sure it was on neutral at the same time and then turn the ignition.

However Manufacturers vary on the advice when starting a car it would seem.

Have we no driving instructors on here then?

[silvervalver]

Originally Posted by McLarenGTA

It's a safety thing!! If your driving instuctor was like mine (going back 20 years) he would have instilled into your strating procedure to depress the clutch so as to make sure the car isn't in gear, I remember having to move the gear stick side to side to make sure it was on neutral at the same time and then turn the ignition.

However Manufacturers vary on the advice when starting a car it would seem.

Have we no driving instructors on here then?

If there are any in the GTA lounge they will have very happy students