Gearbox problems for the 147 GTA again!!!

Hello guys. Sorry I haven't posted for a long time. I've just returned from Europe after 2 1/2 months away.
Upon my return, I have been contacted by one of my contacts in the Alfa game in Australia and it has been brought to my attention that there has been another case of the same gearbox problem that I experienced. One of the spider gears disintegrating. Please go to your dealers and ask questions. If this happens to you, you WILL pay like I did. Yes, I had to pay for that mayhem that happened about 4 months ago.
I ended up bringing the pieces in question to a Metallurgist. He said that there was a stress fracture before the gear broke down. I wanted to go further in bringing it to a University to put it under an electron microscope. This will would have told me the exact date that the fracture happened. Though through time and money, I didn't.
Please post any comments here.
Thank you
Barba

Barbalatte,you mean to say that someone you know has had this happen to them aswell?.Is it someone in Australia?
Btw we have started an Aussie forum for alfa enthusiasts where we would be very interested in what happened to you.
Head over to :

Alfa Oz

I have a question. Is this problem just an Australian issue? It doesn't seem to be generating very much discussion on the forum. I'm quite surprised, but hoping like mad that I don't experience this problem...I've been driving longer than most of the people here have been alive and have never worn out a clutch or broken a diff. To be told that premature wear was caused by my driving would be very galling to say the least.

Yes mate.
I don't bull!!!!.
There is one other case 100% the same. I spoke to this guy yesterday and it happened in the hands of the Rick Damilian Mechanics. Maybe that's why they fixed it. Damilian was behind their customer all the way. Alfa-Centro(My Dealer) were not.
There is also another person which I will be getting the information from tomorrow.
I'll keep you posted.

P.S. If I were you, I'd be very worried. I would certainly ask questions. There is a fault with this gearbox and Alfa must fix it.

I'm curious. Still no response from 147 GTA owners anywhere else in the world. How widespread is this problem? Why haven't the same problems occurred in the 156 GTA? Help Barbalatte out if you can.

I have only heard of a GTA which the magazine testers broke but thats it, can't be that widespread as the gearbox is used for the jtd etc. which run more torque.

Originally Posted by Barbalatte

Hello guys. Sorry I haven't posted for a long time. I've just returned from Europe after 2 1/2 months away.
Upon my return, I have been contacted by one of my contacts in the Alfa game in Australia and it has been brought to my attention that there has been another case of the same gearbox problem that I experienced. One of the spider gears disintegrating. Please go to your dealers and ask questions. If this happens to you, you WILL pay like I did. Yes, I had to pay for that mayhem that happened about 4 months ago.
I ended up bringing the pieces in question to a Metallurgist. He said that there was a stress fracture before the gear broke down. I wanted to go further in bringing it to a University to put it under an electron microscope. This will would have told me the exact date that the fracture happened. Though through time and money, I didn't.
Please post any comments here.
Thank you
Barba

Hi Barba,
can I ask you, how many Km did your car have when this problem occured and what reason did Alfa-centro give you for not fixing it under warranty, like were you racing the car in a supersprint or something? I find it very strange that a dealer would not fix such a problem if it occured during road use, My car has nearly 11000 km and have experienced no problems but I will be contacting my dealer Rick Damelian and see if they heard of anything about defective gearboxes, but do keep us posted of any new developments.
Cheers.
Killer

Hi Killer,
I read with interest the thread of this message.
I have been a mechanic and an Alfa driver for 18 years.
My personal experience is that spider gears don't break unless placed under extreme pressure. The only time they operate is around corners or when one wheel is turning at a different speed to the other. I watched the Bathurst 24 hour and the 156 GTA seemed to perform well till the driver pointed it to the wall.
Some of my friends have late model Alfa and apart from the odd electrical fault have not had any gearbox or mechanical problems. I think you are wise to talk to your dealer, but you may want to give Alfa a call directly or perhaps Nigel the mechanic who prepared the Bathurst 24 hour car.
Kind regards
GTB

Originally Posted by killer

Hi Barba,
can I ask you, how many Km did your car have when this problem occured and what reason did Alfa-centro give you for not fixing it under warranty, like were you racing the car in a supersprint or something? I find it very strange that a dealer would not fix such a problem if it occured during road use, My car has nearly 11000 km and have experienced no problems but I will be contacting my dealer Rick Damelian and see if they heard of anything about defective gearboxes, but do keep us posted of any new developments.
Cheers.
Killer

Hi guys. Thanks for the responses.
To answer a few questions.
I first noticed the problem (the noise from the front of the car at the time) at about the 8,000km mark. I brought it in for the 10,000km service. I asked them to look into it and Alfa-Centro found no problems. A few days later the diff. blew up!
I don't race the car, though I don't drive it like a grand ma. I spoke to ATECO (Alfa Australia) directly and explained that it was due to driver abuse. Mind you, they were apparently going to cover it under "Goodwill". That was before I contacted wheels magazine, which in turn contacted ATECO. I contacted Wheels because ATECO wasn't moving at all. They apparently sent the diff. away to be analyzed. I never saw the report.
In the end I wanted my car back, so I paid the Dealer($3150), who were doing the repairs. I paid "In Protest", which means I can appeal the payment at any time. I will do that in the not to distant future. I have lodged an appeal at the Dept. of Fair Trading Tribunal.
Mind you the other case I also know about. It let go in a Rick Damilian Mechanic's hands. ATECO covered it. They were pushing the crap that "Oh, It has never happened before. This is the first time"! That is after they dealt with me! There bullsh*t artists!

On your personal opinion GTB, What do you think it could have been, that is without looking at the parts (which I have)?

Hi Barbalatte,
Without inspecting the parts I would be guessing, but for all the reasons that this could happen, the 3 most common reasons for spider gear (planetary gear) failure are:
1. Mechanical shock, which occurs when one wheel is spinning then suddenly grips or when the wheel is bouncing.
2. The spider gear seizing onto the support shaft due to excessive rotation and finally it splits when called upon to perform. This occurs because if it spins excessively, the lubrication is not enough to stop the metal from picking up. Usually the support shaft will be bluish in colour and the gear in 2 or 3 pieces.
3. Wear between the gear and the gear carrier, which allows the gear to receed back into the housing to the point where the tips of the gear are takin all the force and break off the teeth.

Normally, only the 3rd scenario is thought of as a faulty part unless you can test the gears and find that the metal is not sufficiently hardened.
Either way it is very difficult to analyse these things as the diff can be quite severely smashed up unless the problem occurs on take-off and you stop immediately.
Hope this assists.
GTB

Originally Posted by Barbalatte

Hi guys. Thanks for the responses.
To answer a few questions.
I first noticed the problem (the noise from the front of the car at the time) at about the 8,000km mark. I brought it in for the 10,000km service. I asked them to look into it and Alfa-Centro found no problems. A few days later the diff. blew up!
I don't race the car, though I don't drive it like a grand ma. I spoke to ATECO (Alfa Australia) directly and explained that it was due to driver abuse. Mind you, they were apparently going to cover it under "Goodwill". That was before I contacted wheels magazine, which in turn contacted ATECO. I contacted Wheels because ATECO wasn't moving at all. They apparently sent the diff. away to be analyzed. I never saw the report.
In the end I wanted my car back, so I paid the Dealer($3150), who were doing the repairs. I paid "In Protest", which means I can appeal the payment at any time. I will do that in the not to distant future. I have lodged an appeal at the Dept. of Fair Trading Tribunal.
Mind you the other case I also know about. It let go in a Rick Damilian Mechanic's hands. ATECO covered it. They were pushing the crap that "Oh, It has never happened before. This is the first time"! That is after they dealt with me! There bullsh*t artists!

On your personal opinion GTB, What do you think it could have been, that is without looking at the parts (which I have)?

Well, thank you for that explanation.
The spider gear was in about 12 pieces and the diff. totally damaged.
How can you come to the conclusion that it was through driver abuse?
I brought the part to a Metallergist near Bankstown Airport in Sydney. This guy works for Qantas. He found one of the teeth had a stress fracture in it.

Hi guys,
just spoke to my dealer and what he told me is that the only thing that can break a gearbox or a diff is driver abuse..that is revving to 6000 RPM and then dropping the clutch, I mean we all do that sometimes and most of the time all goes well but do it all the time and it will probably break, now Barba I'm not suggesting thats what you do all the time with your car, I tend to think that in your case it could also have been a faulty componant in the gearbox itself or Diff that was supplied to Alfa, now I don't drive like a an old woman either I dragged so far an RX8, Commodore SS and a couple of new celicas and won all the time and on take-off believe me when I say that I launched as hard as I could and the car is great no noises nothing faultless, so I dont think there is something chronically wrong with GTA gearboxes or we would have heard something by now from 147 owners and also 156 owners(this car is heavier as well). I do think that your dealer should have fixed it under warranty, as I think yours was an isolated componant failure. In any case I also emailed the Centro clienti of AlfaRomeo in Italy and they emailed me back saying that a consultant will get back to me, so I'll let you know what they have got to say and I will also email the Alfa owners club of Italy to see if anyone of them has experienced similar problems.
Cheers
Killer

Killer, thatnk you very much for your help.
Mate I promise to you, I have never dumped it like you suggested. When the part gave way I was at a set of traffic lights and took off normally.
Thank you once more. I would appreciate if you would give me that e-mail address so I can also contact them.

Dear Barbalatte,
The parts of the diff will normally reveal if the failure was defect or abuse. The way a diff works is in its name "differential". The gears within it work hard only when one wheel is turning at a different speed to the other. If it is a defect, the gear can break if the metal of the gear has a flaw in it or was not of the correct compound. In the case of a flaw, the appearance of the metal at the break would be very different. If it was due to the gear pulling back into the casing, the premature wear would be evident in the gear housing.

As I said, I braught the part to a metallergist. He spotted a different colour on one tooth. He thinks that there was an existing fracture on that tooth.
The part in question is in about 12-13 pieces.
Does this information help?

Hi Barba,
to email Alfa in Italy...www.alfaromeo.it then click on "conttataci" once in there click on customer centre and you can send then your email. But I still think yours was ans isolated incident coused by a faulty componant suppiled to Alfa during manufacturing.
Cheers
Fabio

Hello people!
I am new this forum and this is my very first post
I have a 147 JTD 16V M-Jet and on Sunday coming back from the BTCC at Snetterton in Norfolk, my gearbox failed. I tow a caravan which is well well below the 1300KG towing limit and upon reaching an accident on the A11, one lane one was closed off and I thought that a Porche 911 was going to let me out, but suddenly he floored it and decided not to let me out. In doing so, I was not concentrating and pulled away in 4th gear, creeping along about 5-10MPH downhill and as I released the clutch, the car stalled. So, I fired it up and it would not go into any gear. I was now rolling towards a hill with my speed tailing off very quickly. After messing around with double de-clutching several times I managed to get it into 1st, so I thought i would be O.K, but as soon as I got out of 1st it would not go into 2nd. When trying to get get it into gear it did not make any grinding noise, as the lever simply would not mesh the cogs into gear. Anyway to cut a long story short, I managed to pull into a lay-by where I then had to wait 2.5 hours to pick me, my car and my caravan up. Whilst wating I looked under the engine and I saw fluid (I can only assume oil) leaking from behind the under tray. At first I thought it might have been the air-con, but then I realised that realised that it was too much to be that.
I suspect it is either one of the following:

- Gear linkage bent/broken - hence the inability to get the car into gear
- Hyd. clutch failure - hence the fluid
- or something else

I know that my car aint a GTA, but it uses the same gear box I think (6-speed man) and I was woundering what Barba's sytoms were and what exactly was the problem.

The old girls been dropped off today (Monday) and is getting the TLC that she now deserves. I suspect many off you will be thinking its becuase I've tow a caravan, but it was well below the towing limit and the engine/gearbox us not under much load, as I was rolling downhill. Any ideas?

Hello 147....
1st of all I am really sad that you have to go through these problems with your car. I and others on this site know exactly what you are going through. Don't except the first thing they say to you! Alfa will desperatly try to get out of something like this.
I'm not sure it's the same problem as I had. My problem was the shattered diff! Ask Alfa if the 147 JTD gearbox is the same as the 147 GTA gearbox. I don't think so.
Does anybody have any information on these Gearboxes?

Hi JTD 16v,
Sounds to me like the clutch slave cylinder gave way. Was the fluid watery and yellow or green or was it a thick oil?Possibly a weak seal in the slave which failed completely due to extra heat from the clutch when taking off in 4th. I can't see what you did causing damage to the gearbox, only the clutch. I'd be interested to know.
Cheers from OZ.

Originally Posted by alfa_147_jtd_16v

Hello people!
I am new this forum and this is my very first post
I have a 147 JTD 16V M-Jet and on Sunday coming back from the BTCC at Snetterton in Norfolk, my gearbox failed. I tow a caravan which is well well below the 1300KG towing limit and upon reaching an accident on the A11, one lane one was closed off and I thought that a Porche 911 was going to let me out, but suddenly he floored it and decided not to let me out. In doing so, I was not concentrating and pulled away in 4th gear, creeping along about 5-10MPH downhill and as I released the clutch, the car stalled. So, I fired it up and it would not go into any gear. I was now rolling towards a hill with my speed tailing off very quickly. After messing around with double de-clutching several times I managed to get it into 1st, so I thought i would be O.K, but as soon as I got out of 1st it would not go into 2nd. When trying to get get it into gear it did not make any grinding noise, as the lever simply would not mesh the cogs into gear. Anyway to cut a long story short, I managed to pull into a lay-by where I then had to wait 2.5 hours to pick me, my car and my caravan up. Whilst wating I looked under the engine and I saw fluid (I can only assume oil) leaking from behind the under tray. At first I thought it might have been the air-con, but then I realised that realised that it was too much to be that.
I suspect it is either one of the following:

- Gear linkage bent/broken - hence the inability to get the car into gear
- Hyd. clutch failure - hence the fluid
- or something else

I know that my car aint a GTA, but it uses the same gear box I think (6-speed man) and I was woundering what Barba's sytoms were and what exactly was the problem.

The old girls been dropped off today (Monday) and is getting the TLC that she now deserves. I suspect many off you will be thinking its becuase I've tow a caravan, but it was well below the towing limit and the engine/gearbox us not under much load, as I was rolling downhill. Any ideas?