Not happy - serious problem

I've got what looks like a serious problem with the GTA.

Driving to a wedding the other day I noticed a bit of smoke on hard acceleration so I decided to take it easy. Starting the car to drive back from the reception in the evening the idle was very erratic, I put it down to the coldness but still took it easy on the drive home.

Went to start the car yesterday and it started fine then stalled after a few seconds. I was in a rush so didn't investigate, just quickly moved to Plan B (train).

I've just had a go again now and it's not good. There's white/blue smoke (oil presumably) coming out the exhaust, you can keep it from stalling with the throttle, but it definately isn't firing on all cylinders.

I've always treated the car very well, ensuring it warms up fully before using too many revs, always checking the oil before long journeys (and I only use Selenia). I usually drive to conserve fuel rather than go fast too so it's not been abused at all.

Anyone got any ideas as to what it might be?
If it's not one thing, it's another with my car

I suppose the only good thing is that I didn't decide to sell it last week because I would have had a very angry new owner to deal with!

Don't know if it's your problem, but a recent report stated that the joint between the head and block, was still sometimes failing on some vehicles, and it was listed as a weak point. Hope yours is a simpler fix.:

Originally Posted by JackGTA

I've got what looks like a serious problem with the GTA.

Driving to a wedding the other day I noticed a bit of smoke on hard acceleration so I decided to take it easy. Starting the car to drive back from the reception in the evening the idle was very erratic, I put it down to the coldness but still took it easy on the drive home.

Went to start the car yesterday and it started fine then stalled after a few seconds. I was in a rush so didn't investigate, just quickly moved to Plan B (train).

I've just had a go again now and it's not good. There's white/blue smoke (oil presumably) coming out the exhaust, you can keep it from stalling with the throttle, but it definately isn't firing on all cylinders.

I've always treated the car very well, ensuring it warms up fully before using too many revs, always checking the oil before long journeys (and I only use Selenia). I usually drive to conserve fuel rather than go fast too so it's not been abused at all.

Anyone got any ideas as to what it might be?
If it's not one thing, it's another with my car

I suppose the only good thing is that I didn't decide to sell it last week because I would have had a very angry new owner to deal with!

Mate, PM me your number.. I have a plan.

Joe

It's gone to the dealers this morning, fingers crossed it's not a biggy.

Joe: Sorry, got v busy yesterday, thanks anyway!

No worries. Hope she's ok. Is she still in warranty?

Originally Posted by zulu ferret

Don't know if it's your problem, but a recent report stated that the joint between the head and block, was still sometimes failing on some vehicles, and it was listed as a weak point. Hope yours is a simpler fix.:

You mean the head gasket?
Sounds like that could be issue with oil, or a broken piston ring etc.

Sounds like a coil pack to me.

Yeah I thought maybe the coilpack. It can run like a bag of **** with a fooked coilpack.

Would the oil and smoke would be caused by this too?

I'll report back as soon as I hear from the garage.
Warranty ran out last last unfortunately so I hope it's nothing too bad.

Any number of things can cause this, failed head gasket, broken piston or piston ring. A fooked coilpack wil cause it to run rough but it will usually stick out black smoke. Blue smoke is oil Definately not a great sign

hello Jack,
Firstly, as you have never abused your engine to the extent the rest of us have ????? lol then I suspect it's not gonna be anything too major. I just pulled the head off mine as I've not had it too long which I do as a matter of course when I buy a new buggy so I can actually see what I've bought. Yaeh I know I must be mad, but, If I see excessive wear anywhere then I get shot of it asap lol. Mine is an unknown quantity, no service history and had done 99k.
When the head came off, I was gob smacked!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is absolutely no wear at all in the bores with the cross hatching still plainly visible and no wear step in the top of the bore at all where the rings go to TDC.
The head in all aspects is like new, the valves had hardly any carbon deposits on em inlet or exhaust and only needed a slight wire brushing by hand and a light lap and were good as new. Although I changed em even the valve stem seals were still doing their job and sealing well round the valve stems.
As mentioned by Phil D the only things that can cause smoke are, head gasket, valve stem seals, piston rings, cracked head, or if you have one blown bearing seals on a turbo shaft.
Did the car run hot? or over heat at all? If so you may have a head gasket blown. Either way, don't drive it too much cause if the head gasket has blown and in the right place it will wear your head face away and then you'll have to have the head built up with weld and re faced, so not worth driving it !!!!

Hope you get it all sorted without too much cost and grief to you.

Regards to you all

Alec

Dealer told me this afternoon it's the head gasket.

I'm more than a little bit ****ed off, there is no way this should happen on a 35k mile car (04 plate). As for abuse: the car has done one trackday a year ago and been to Santapod once. Apart from that, I have only ever driven on public roads. Yes, I accelerate hard down the odd slip road, but for ****s sake, it's a performance car, its supposed to do that!

The dealers going to give me a quote in the morning. Needless to say, I'll be after Alfa Romeo to cough at least some of the price up.

I had to laugh at the £2176 + VAT quote the dealers gave me. I also had to get a second opinion, so I took the car over to Ruspers, the independant specialists.

They said that it definately wasn't the HG (I was already suspicious about that as the car was running fine once warm, not losing coolant and it wasn't water vapour coming out the back) but instead the valve guide stem seals. Still a big job, but it's going in to them early May to get sorted out, going to get the 36k service and the cambelt done too, all for a heck of a lot less than the dealers quoted just for the HG (which wouldn't have solved it anyway!).

I was quite impressed with Ruspers, they seem to know what they're talking about. Nice little village too!

I'm glad I was a bit suspicious of the dealers, but I'd had problems with them before. Poor communication, can't-be-bothered attitude, absurd pricing and mis-diagnosis. Is it frowned upon to name them here?

Get that warranty. You can't claim within the first 28 days.. but you could claim for this.

It will save you a fortune.

I like that "+ VAT" great punch line!

So is she okay to drive in the mean time?

Naming and shaming is standard protocol in this situation I'm afraid

Originally Posted by Caldo Bollente

I like that "+ VAT" great punch line!

So is she okay to drive in the mean time?

Naming and shaming is standard protocol in this situation I'm afraid

Allams of Epsom?

Bishops, Guildford. Don't go near them with a barge pole (they'll say it needs a new head gasket).

Will look into the AA warranty now Joe, thanks.

Ruspers said the car is ok to drive in the meantime, yep. But I'm taking it easy just in case. Managed a record 31.8mpg journey yesterday as a result!

Originally Posted by JackGTA

I had to laugh at the £2176 + VAT quote the dealers gave me. I also had to get a second opinion, so I took the car over to Ruspers, the independant specialists.

They said that it definately wasn't the HG (I was already suspicious about that as the car was running fine once warm, not losing coolant and it wasn't water vapour coming out the back) but instead the valve guide stem seals. Still a big job, but it's going in to them early May to get sorted out, going to get the 36k service and the cambelt done too, all for a heck of a lot less than the dealers quoted just for the HG (which wouldn't have solved it anyway!).

I was quite impressed with Ruspers, they seem to know what they're talking about. Nice little village too!

I'm glad I was a bit suspicious of the dealers, but I'd had problems with them before. Poor communication, can't-be-bothered attitude, absurd pricing and mis-diagnosis. Is it frowned upon to name them here?

Valve stem oil seals?!

My ar5e. I have NEVER seen them fail on an alfa. Its something else.

"Its still a big job"

Its as big a job as replacing the head gaskets.... You have to remove the heads and strip the valves out to replace the oil seals. You have to do exactly the same thing to skim the heads which is generally the case if a HG fails.

I'd be very surprised if it were the valve stem seals too. How do they know this?

I'd see Bianco Auto Developements which are relatively near rusper or if you can get to Bedfordshire the Alfa Workshop for a second opinion.

I am a bit confused because I started the car this morning and there wasn't any smoke out the back at all.

I was under the impression that Ruspers have a very good reputation so am more inclined to believe them than the dealers, with whom I have had numerous problems with in the past.

Thanks for the input though, keep it coming. I'll try for a third opinion then, this is getting ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Mr_Caine

I'd be very surprised if it were the valve stem seals too. How do they know this?

Their reasoning was as follows:

The car smokes badly from cold, but the smoke gradually disappears as the engine warms up. As the car is left turned off, say overnight, oil collects in the cylinder as it passes through the broken valve guide seal. The smoke seen on cold start up is the oil being burnt off. Once the car is warm, the offending oil has been burnt, hence the car appears ok. On my car, there is also smoke under acceleration, they speculated that this could be due to slight piston damage, but I kind of lost track from there I'm afraid

It is a big job yes, as big as replacing the head gasket, but Ruspers still quote under half the price that Bishops quoted so I am inclined to let them get on with it...

I'm definitely with the "it's not the stem seals" people.

Typically, if you burn oil right on startup, it's drained down while the engine is not running - as Rusper have said - but it's gone almost immediately but there's a general increase in oil consumption. Faulty stem seals (usually due to hardening with age and heat) don't really affect the engine's running to any great extent.

When you get oil burning under load, it's usualy coming up past the pistons, so if the cause is not something particularly unusual, I'm inclined to think it's piston rings. Shouldn't be appreciable bore wear at this mileage as you've said, so broken ring(s) as somebody else has suggested. This could cause bore damage though.

Sorry if I'm now teaching you to suck eggs but anyway this is the way I see it...

The crankcase is ventilated through hoses in the cam covers that attach to the induction system near the throttle body. It's normal to pick up some oil mist and this often tends to collect around the throttle butterfly plate, which is why you often see people here being advised to clean around that area with carburettor cleaner or similar.

Under hard acceleration, increased blow-by at the pistons past damaged seals at the rings causes increased crankcase pressure. This is vented through the same placew as before but carries more oil with it giving rise to the blue smoke.

You should be able to see evidence of this in the induction system around the throttle body, unless it's already been cleaned up by garages that have already looked at it.

At the same time, oil is drawn into the combustion chamber up past the damaged ring seals on sharp deceleration when the throttle is closed and there is a large vacuum in the combustion chamber. I suppose in an extreme case of failed valve stem seals, oil could also be drawn down past the valve stems at the same time. I tend to think this would give a "puff" of blue smoke immediately the throttle was opened again, rather than smoke while accelerating.

It's going to be expensive though, I rather think.