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Alfasud 1.5 Liter Engine Ignition Problems - Help Please!

10K views 32 replies 10 participants last post by  doublegarage 
#1 ·
Hi Folks,

I have been restoring an unusual 1978 Alfasud Giardinetta - Wagon/Estate/Kombi - here in the USA and am having problems with the ignition at present.

The car came with a late 1990's 1.5 liter engine with hydraulic valve lifters in the head and twin Weber 40 IDF carbies. It also came with an electronic ignition distributor - which is causing me a lot of problems at present.

I took the car off the road a few years ago as I attended to a number of bodywork and rust issues. When I took the car off the road the engine was running strong - when it got fuel to the carbies, which was problematical due to the extremely rusted out condition of the fuel lines and fuel tank. When I drained the fuel tank I got a gloppish type of orange jello like sludge, the tank was so rusted! I had my local tank cleaning shop attempt to clean out the fuel tank, and they put it in their vats and boiled it out and the whole tank disappeared with the exception of the top of the tank and half the big fuel filler inlet! The rest of the fuel tank dissolved in their vats, it was so rusty!

Once I got into everything underneath the car I found almost obscene and unbelievable amounts of rust in everything - the brakes, suspension, fuel system, etc...so I replaced everything with as many NOS units as I could find - new suspension, new brakes, new fuel tank, new fuel system, new brake and fuel lines, and so forth. This has taken a couple of years to source parts for this variant of the Alfasud, as it seems most of these cars are long gone and most of the parts dealers selling Alfasud parts threw out their spares years ago when people no longer requested them. To say it been a challenge to source parts for this car is a gross understatement

Now that everything is new under the car I have been trying to start up the car and am getting no spark at the spark plugs. The distributor type is a Bosch non-vacuum advance type with the part number 0 237 601 021 - which seems correct for the 1980's and 1990 1.5 liter Alfasud and 33 Boxer four cylinder engines - with a transistorized unit bolted to it and Hall effect pickups inside the body of the distributor. I am getting very weak spark from the primary coil wire when grounded ("jumping") to the engine block, and no spark from the spark plug leads for plugs #1, #3, #2 and #4.

My question is, do you folks have any experience with these distributors failing?

And, has anybody out there attempted to use a newer "1-2-3" type optical ignition distributor in their Alfasud? I have had incredibly good success with using these new distributors in my Giulietta and Giulia, and would go so far as to say it's the best single upgrade you can make to any Alfa Nord inline 4 cylinder engine from the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's.

Can anybody point me to a thread or blog that deals with straight forward trouble shooting of this Alfasud distributor?

Thanks very much for your time everybody, and I hope some Alfasud Pro out there can help me diagnose this sucker!
 
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#3 ·
Hi,

Congratulations for the rare find! (Especially in the U.S.)
As far as I can tell the Hall effect sensor type distributor was used only on
fuel injected 1.5 and 1.7 engines between 1990 and 1992. This type of distributor
doesn't have RPM dependent mechanical advance, it was done by an external electronic
control unit. This distributor doesn't have externally mounted power module either,
but it has vacuum chamber for load dependent advance correction.

Distributors with inductive pickup sensor do have bolted on power module.
I've attached a picture of the pickup assembly.
If you have this type of pickup inside, damaged pickup coil, or bad contact
between the pickup coil spade connectors and the power module input can cause
weak spark.

Do you have a picture of your distributor?
 

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#4 ·
Thanks for the info...now I know that the distributor itself can simply fail!

Had a look for NOS units on fleabay Italia...so far all I can find are units with vacuum advance, which I don't need for this engine. I will keep looking...

Does anybody out there perhaps have a source for a cross reference for this distributor - Bosch 0 237 601 021 - so I can also search for units that maybe don't have "Alfa" or "Alfasud" in the listings? In other words, was this distributor used on VW's? Maybe the Vanagon? Maybe an early Golf? Maybe something else?

And, does anybody out there have an advance curve graph for this distributor? If I can examine the graph then maybe I can find another Bosch unit that as a similar advance curve...

Thanks again everybody!
 
#7 ·
I don't know if it's any help but there is a company over here www.alfasud-parts.co.uk you could try and search them as they claim to have spares for all the boxer cars (suds and 33's) they should have this distributor. ????
It is possible that the box attached to the distributor ( ignition module amplifier ) is where the problem is .
It might be worth trying to find a replacement for this on its own and go from there.
If as you say, the car was very rusty, it is possible that this has failed due to damp or moisture.
Good luck :thumbu p:

Such a rare car too. Please put up some pics if you get a chance.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I had an 1982-model Alfasud 1,5 from 1982-1989, and if memory serves, it might be a good start checking if the ignition coil and esp. the wiring for it is OK, - in case you are getting no spark.

The real weak parts are, however, the ignition wiring and the distributor cap (esp. the contacts on the inside).
Also the rotor arm must of course be whole and free from corrosion.

Good luck. It’s really a great little car to drive.
 
#10 ·
Good news.
I have just checked the distributor on my sons 1.5 33 spare engine that I am rebuilding an it is the same as yours. This means that this was a widely used and so widely available part. Indeed I have seen many for sale on GB Ebay. Also they used a marelli one with a different coil of which is on the engine currently in my sons 33. I know Peter at alfa sud parts, Ed just 33 or Alex 33 bits will have a spare for you. Originally Suds had points and then went to electronic which then used the same engines in the 33 to 1989 or so. Check the cap an rotor arm as these caused just your issues on my sons 33.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for all the help so far Folks!

I have tested - by replacing with NOS parts - the following on this distributor: Ignition Coil (I found a Super Bosch Red Coil that interchanged with the stock coil), Ignition Coil Module (OEM NOS Bosch matching numbers part new in the box from Deutschland), Distributor Ignition Coil Module (same NOS OEM Bosch type part, also found on fleabay Deutschland), NOS Bosch Rotor, NOS Bosch Distributor Cap, and NOS Bosch/Alfa OEM NOS Spark Plug wires (leads).

Nothing has worked to help me get spark to the spark plugs.

Since I've replaced everything but the actual distributor and nothing has worked I'm assuming I have a bad distributor.

Has anyone tried the newish "1-2-3" ignition distributors in their Alfas?

I have used the 1-2-3 distributors in both my Giuliettas and Giulias and have to say that they are the SINGLE biggest and best addition to those cars. They make the cars start instantly and they add more power depending on the advance curve you pick when you install them. In the case of one Giulia I have the new 1-2-3 ignition distributor alone turned the car from a good bone stock regular Giulia 1600 105 series car into a pavement pounding snarling tiger - at least under the hood.

It really made that much of a drastic difference using the 1-2-3 distributor versus the old stock Bosch points and condenser JF4 standard distributor the car originally came with in 1967.

I have contacted the Folks at 1-2-3 Ignition systems in Die Nederland and they are not sure that they have a 1-2-3 Distributor that will work with the Alfasud engine. They have asked me to provide advance curves for the stock Bosch distributor and they will see if any of their units are adaptable to the 'Sud boxer engines.

Can anyone help me find the advance curve graphs for the Bosch 0 237 601 021 Ignition Distributor?

If I can get the info to the 1-2-3 Folks and if they have a replacement distributor I will get one of those and be done with the 40+ year old technology of the original distributor. The Hall Effect used in the original Alfasud distributor that I have for this engine is at least better then the old points and condenser distributors from the older models, but the optical technology used in the 1-2-3 distributors far surpasses anything else out there available for Alfas - based on my real world use of them and in my humble opinion.

Attached are a few pics of the Giardinetta...

Thanks again everybody!
 

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#13 ·
Thanks for that help...I just checked the part of the distributor you so kindly described and it is solid as a rock and attached firmly...

Has anybody out there installed a new 1-2-3 distributor in a boxer engined Alfa? If so, which model did you use?

Thanks Folks!
 
#15 ·
I know this is going to sound stupid but I did once manage to get my distributor in 180 deg out :yikes:
Took me ages to fathom out what I had done.
Having said that the distributor does look like its been left somewhere damp for a long period .This has probably finished it off. They really don't like being damp.
Are the seats later model Alfasud sprint seats re trimmed in leather?

Nice pics lovely little car you have there. :thumbup:
 
#16 ·
Thanks for the suggestion - I have done that in the past too, mostly with Giuliettas.

I learned probably 30-40 years ago to double check that I don't have the distributor out 180 degrees as one of the first things to look for with these wonderful cars.

I once had a 750D Spider - my daily driver and my first car when I initially got my drivers license in 1973 - that had that awful Lucas distributor and the thing would pop out of it's slot in the top of the oil pump from time to time and re-locate itself 180 degrees out of timing. This could happen virtually anytime - driving down the lane, driving on the motorway, whatever - and the car would lose all power and die whilst in the middle of sometimes very scary traffic. I would coast over to the side of the road and pop the hood and check that first and usually solve the problem in minutes. However, one time it happened on the Motorway and I pulled off onto the shoulder and checked the distributor timing and it was fine! After scratching my head for a while I finally removed the distributor - still parked on the side of a busy motorway with thousands of cars roaring by - and spun the shaft in my hand and found that the points plate inside that horrible Lucas DM2 distributor had decided to just shudder loose off it's base plate and close the points for good and it swallowed the points plate set screw down inside the body of the beast! I had to scrounge around the car and come up with a screw and then "eyeball" my point gap and re-install it and then it started up right away again!

Those old Lucas distributors in the Giuliettas were a nightmare - at least for me! As soon as I could I begged/borrowed/stole a Bosch JF4 distributor from one of my Dad's Alfas and put it in that little Giulietta Spider and I was never stuck on the side of the road again - it worked like a charm for years and years and years!

Given this past history with awful Giulietta distributors I have always bee a little "sensitive" to Alfa distributor problems - I go out of my way to make sure they are reliable. That's why I love the 1-2-3 modern distributors so much - you install them and time them and then NEVER think about them again. And they give you more power to boot!

Wish I could find a 1-2-3 distributor for this little Alfasud Giardinetta - it would be a dream come true!

As to the seats and interior of this Giardinetta I have had to totally re-do the interior of this little wagon - it was "pimped out" by the previous owner and had crushed black and bright orange velvet velour seats and doorcards. It was so tacky I was a little surprised that he didn't mount a cheap Mexican blacklight velvet oil painting of Elvis or Hendrix or maybe Bob Marley inside on the headliner to finish the "pimp my ride" effect!

I got the correct original Alfa ("TexAlfa") Saddle colored vinyl from the original supplier in Torino - Paolini. Then I got a lovely pair of Recaro front seats from Peter at Alfasud Parts that came out of a later model 33 as the original seats were destroyed from 40 years of use and then being recovered in that hideous black and orange by some deranged Mexican upholsterer.

The real problem was re-doing the doorcards, sidecards and rear hatchcard. Not only were they originally composed of pressed cardboard that had rotted and warped and fallen apart down the years but the deranged Mexican upholsterer had used some form of glue to attach the hideous black and orange crushed velvet to the cards and that finally did them in - they fell to pieces when I first started to remove the new material from the backings.

I searched the internet for about a year and finally gave up trying to source NOS Alfasud TI 2-door Series II doorcards. They just didn't exist anywhere in the world anymore. So I taught myself how to make new ones myself.

I started with 1/8" thick marine grade water proof plywood sheets, then built up layers of additional wood and water proof upholstery grade cardboard until I had copied the original contours of the original doorcards, sidecards and hatchcard. When all this was done I carefully heated the new Saddle Alfa vinyl with a heat gun and glued it to the new cards. I also cut out the new front doorcard armrests from lightweight but very strong American Birch wood, and covered those with the vinyl - heating and stretching and gluing as I went, then bolted them to the doorcard with a 10 gauge backplate of steel to spread the load of the armrest across the rear surface area of the doorcard.

It took me three tries - making three "prototypes" of the rear hatchcard (the easiest card in the car) - until I had taught myself to make them to my satisfaction.

Attached are a few more pics of the interior. If anybody wants to do this for their car feel free to contact me, as I have now "been there done that" and can help with advice!

Thanks again Folks!
 

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#17 ·
I'm very impressed you have saved a car I have still only ever seen pictures of.
Having owned many Alfasuds I can really appreciate the time and effort that has gone and still is going into it.
A cracking little car, and still one of the best ever handling small cars I've ever owned.
You should be very proud of you work. :thumbup:

I know a lot of the alfisti think that you need to have the work done by the experts but to me it's the end results that count.
On top of that,the feeling of satisfaction you get from learning and achiving is second to none. :cloud9:
 
#20 ·
I will confirm for you and let you know what part number to order. If you have the Marelli coil on the big heat sink you will need to replace it as the 123 won't drive the low impedance coil. I will send through the details as soon as i confirm the part numbers but it was a stock product from 123.
 
#24 ·
123Ignition distributor for Alfasud

Could anyone here please separately confirm that they have used a 123Ignition distributor on an Alfasud boxer engine.

I've used them on Alfa-Nord engines and find them to be an excellent upgrade from worn-out 50 year old distributors made by Bosch or Marelli.

However, the reason there are so many models on their website is due to the number of different mounting/drive configurations used by various manufacturers. Therefore I'm surprised that a VW unit will fit the Alfa-boxer engine. I know that a VW Beetle unit does not fit an Alfa Giulietta/Giulia engine, for instance.

Therefore looking for more people who have used a 123 and know that it works. Thanks for any info.

-Richard
1988 Alfa Sprint 1.7
 
#25 ·
I haven't heard from more then one source on one thread about using a new 123 distributor on their Alfasud boxer engine so far. It would be nice to get more info - even anecdotally - about other Folks using the 123 distributor in their Alfasuds...

The Folks at 123 ignition in the Netherlands seem to think that their totally programmable model 4-A-V-V will work on the Alfasud, and I have been in contact with them about using it on this car. Of course, you have to program it using your laptop for the advance curves you want, and I have been unable to find out the standard advance curves for a stock late model hydraulic valve lifter 1.5 liter Alfasud engine.

Does anybody out there perhaps have a link to website or thread showing stock advance curves graphs for the stock non-vacuum advance Bosch distributor used in these cars? The distributor I have is labelled "0 237 601 021" and "JGFUX4"...
 
#26 ·
#27 ·
vertical wires

Just realised that the 4-A-V-V model has the right-angle distributor cap - wires exit horizontally.

I've only ever seen that on Fiat 124s - on my 88 Sprint they exit vertically. So the 123ignition model for VW, Volvo and as now seems likely Alfa boxer engines is the 123/TUNE+ 4-R-V-V ('+' means Bluetooth, drop the '+' for USB).

eg from here https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/tune-plus-volvo/185-123tune4rvv-bluetooth.html

-Richard
 
#28 ·
Thanks very much Richard for your continuing help with my Giardinettas' ignition maladies!

That link you included in your last post is a good one, and clearly shows a standard "upright" distributor cap application for the 1-2-3 distributor on Alfasuds.

I will be contacting those guys and inquiring about getting one of those for my car!

Do you have any recommendations for how I should setup my initial advance curves in this programmable distributor? I have a 1995 1.5 liter boxer engine in my car, with hydraulic tappets/lifters, with Weber 40 IDF downdraft carbies, and otherwise in standard tune - no hincky high performance cams or high performance pistons or anything else - just all the stock items that came in the engine from the Factory when new...

Also, any particular ignition coil you like for these distributors? The 1-2-3 Folks like you to use their Beru coil with these distributors - does this sound like a good idea to you?

Thanks again for all the help you Pro Alfasud Guy you!

Dave
 
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