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(Post Link) post #1 of 1863 Old 20-01-08 Thread Starter
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Sprint 6C build up

As some AOs are aware, I have recently acquired a Sprint 1.7 but also want to build a version of the Sprint 6C. I have now bought a second Sprint - less engine and gearbox which will form the basis of the 6C. I will post pics on this thread, of the build as and when. Thanks to the Alfisti so far who have already offered support and advice - I'm sure I will need much more in the months to come....
My version will have the Alfa V6 from a 164/166?? mounted complete with suspension and gearbox, transversly rather than a longitudinal V6 and transaxle.
Philip
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Sounds excellent mate

Thinking of the low weight of the sprint and it's propensity to torque steer, mightn't a quaife diff like the recent Q2's be part of your plans?? They make it for all models of the v6 I think (155 definitely so 164/166 will be a go).

I'm currently saving up..... quite a list i'm getting (powerflex bushes, slightly lowered on Bilstein's and now the diff becomes available for it.)

Who needs food anyway???
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Interesting project

The front track of the 164 is about 1515mm and the rear track of the Sprint is about 1359 - going to be fun to get that all in but should be possible to flare the rear out without losing the look of the standard car.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

All the best with the Sprint 6c project Philip
 
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

yes Good Luck with it.
you will have quite a unique Alfa when its done.

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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Originally Posted by James76 View Post
Sounds excellent mate

Thinking of the low weight of the sprint and it's propensity to torque steer, mightn't a quaife diff like the recent Q2's be part of your plans?? They make it for all models of the v6 I think (155 definitely so 164/166 will be a go).

I'm currently saving up..... quite a list i'm getting (powerflex bushes, slightly lowered on Bilstein's and now the diff becomes available for it.)

Who needs food anyway???
Once mid engined and not doing steering doubt if will need a slippy diff unless going for a monster engine / rally special as weight transfer is onto the wheels rather than away from it under accleration so traction should be pretty good anyway.

Can you use a 5 stud front hub to get wheels to match easily ?

Sounds like a really good project, hope never to see it in 'unfinished' on e-bay !
KR James
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(Post Link) post #7 of 1863 Old 22-01-08 Thread Starter
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Hi Folks
Thanks for comments and support. In response, No plans for trick diff or monster rally special - just a good road car with flared wheel arches as per 6C. Not sure about changing front hubs to 5 stud - thought of trying to get same pattern front and rears,15" dia with 4 and 5 hole fixing but not sure which models to look at - but that is a long way off. Still assessing my base Sprint.
Philip
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(Post Link) post #8 of 1863 Old 27-01-08 Thread Starter
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Making progress but on domestic items! I needed to get the Sprint under cover and with 3 cars in the garage and my wife "Not wanting the house to look like a scrapyard" I had a problem....
However asking around in the locality has resulted in a space in a large shed being secured and so the morning has been spent tidying it and making it reasonably secure - Ho Hum now to get it moved......
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Wave Re: Sprint 6C build up

Progress continues as I have now got my Sprint under cover. Also I've been seeing what needs doing to the shell and it is not tooooo bad!
Some patching needed around a couple of wheel arch corners and as usual the scuttle at the base of the windscreen. But as can be seen, the top half looks quite tidy.
I have also found details of a New Zealand Sprint that has a 164 V6 installed for racing on the Alfa BB - so this has given further ideas and inspiration!
Philip
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

and so it begins ...

nice big shed you got there
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

interesting, I have considering doing something similar myself for a while now (I go through these phases - i think it must be some kind of crisis). I have most of damaged 147 GTA in my workshop. Originally I was going to mod my GTV6 to a 3.2 but have decided to keep it original.

Then I thought a 6C sprint would be fun. I was planning on using a longitudal install maybe modding a GTV / 75 transaxle to suit.

I cant remember if the original 6C was longitudal or transverse now, I have a feeling it was possibly longitudal - i don't think Alfa had done a transverse install of it at that point in time.

Look forward to seeing how you go anyway.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Then I thought a 6C sprint would be fun. I was planning on using a longitudal install maybe modding a GTV / 75 transaxle to suit.

I cant remember if the original 6C was longitudal or transverse now, I have a feeling it was possibly longitudal - i don't think Alfa had done a transverse install of it at that point in time.
As far as I can make out, the 6C had a longitudinal engine installation, but would not have used the GTV/75 transaxle as this has the gear cluster in front of the final drive rather than overhanging it like an Alfasud unit. There seems to be plenty of information regarding the Giacattolo prototype which used a German ZF transaxle (GT40, Pantera etc.), but no clear information on what Alfa themselves used in the 6C. The only suitable in-house transaxle would have been a left-over T33 unit, or possibly a heavily overworked 'Sud gearbox. I wouldn't be surprised if they did use a ZF, I don't think there is any shame in using an non-Italian transmission, even in-house Lamborghini units used Porsche synchronisers

Designing and building a mid-engined anything from scratch is a lengthy process and will inevitably cost an arm and a leg. Been there, done it, and there wasn't even a t-shirt at the end I really, really like the idea of a 6C, and I hope that Phillip succeeds in building it.

To be honest, I think there is mileage in building a mid-engined Sprint with a boxer unit, as used in the experimental mid-engine 'Suds and (together with the front engine) the Wainer Bimotore

Lauren

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(Post Link) post #13 of 1863 Old 13-02-08 Thread Starter
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Quick Update
- I now have a 164 - V6, 3.0, 24 valve manual gearbox - in nice running order! Photo to follow.
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Well Happy Re: Sprint 6C build up

Well this is the engine and gearbox - its not too much wider??? Well with some quick measurements and comparison with my Sprint I'm sure it will fit.
But there will be a pause whilst I work on my original std Sprint, to get it ready for an MoT and better respray!
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Did you get the whole car or just the engine ?
Whats the plan - if you got the whole car bit of work with an angle grinder and you have suspension engine mountings etc. etc.still attached to inner wings /bulkheads or a good template for your cage.
Even if it is a bit wider the swage on the sprint gives a nice pick up for some quattro style wide arches.
Great engine choice.
KR James
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Originally Posted by James&Nick View Post
Did you get the whole car or just the engine ?
Whats the plan - if you got the whole car bit of work with an angle grinder and you have suspension engine mountings etc. etc.still attached to inner wings /bulkheads or a good template for your cage.
Even if it is a bit wider the swage on the sprint gives a nice pick up for some quattro style wide arches.
Great engine choice.
KR James
Hi James
Yes - I have the whole car and you've got the plan - I'll drop the sub frame with the engine/box and struts, then remove the front end, cut off the strut towers, lower side rails and front bulkhead. That gets put into the sprint complete. Then the sub frame with engine/box and struts gets put back. Then its sorting the gearbox linkage - which I believe is via cables? plumbing and wiring using as much from the 164 as possible - but do I keep the air-con.......?
...........oh decisions decisions!!!
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

air con as well cool in more ways than one
 
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Well, as it seems that Air con is to be fitted, if possible, I now have a pair of 156? Alfa front seats with electric rake adjustment! as there will be no rear seats, the seat back will not need to tilt forwards.....such luxuries!!
However, thinking further, I am wondering how to solve a problem about braking? By using the 164 front complete, those brakes may be too powerful as the weight transfer will be off them onto the Sprint fronts. Also what to do about a handbrake??
I wondered therefore if I may be able to use the rear brake discs and calipers from the 164 instead, presumably they will also have a handbrake system. I've not done any checking/measuring at this stage but what are other peoples thoughts??
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Since the weight of the engine is now over the rear instead of the front wouldnt this mean that you need fairly big brakes on the rear - maybe 164 non vented discs? Are you thinking to go for an adjustable pedal box - could be difficult to balance the brakes otherwise
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

A couple of pics as to what could be

Last edited by Pascs; 07-04-12 at 14:08.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Since the weight of the engine is now over the rear instead of the front wouldnt this mean that you need fairly big brakes on the rear - maybe 164 non vented discs? Are you thinking to go for an adjustable pedal box - could be difficult to balance the brakes otherwise
Big brakes on the back is no issue as long as you can get the bias right and the first thing to do there is put the biggest brakes possible on the front. I would be tempted to keep the 164 hubs / brakes as they are and do something like in Borris' 33brake upgrade to the front.
Its come up before but my MOT man said no issue with a hydraulic handbrake or even electronic line lock as long as can be tested - lots of cars now out and about with a line lock system.

Adjustable peadle box might be the way to go - getting the right piston bore / stroke to give good brake feel very difficult with a special set up.

Good luck sounds like a really fantastic project.
KR James
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

I'd definately agree with the adjustable bias box - and using the 164 front brakes on the rear as well - although it might be worth looking at how the handbrake caliper is fitted so it could be transferred.

Hydraulic handbrakes are now available on production cars, so the original construction & use regulations (which stipulated cable operation etc.) have been amended. A 150 hydraulic handbrake assembly from Demon Tweeks (complete handbrake, mechanism and hydraulic master cylinder) should do the job fine.

I am using the 'Sud inboard front brakes (with handbrake) at the back of the Green Machine, with Ford M16 (made by ATE ) calipers on the front and AP Racing master cylinders with a bias bar. I set up my brake balance by starting with the bias on full-front and doing a series of sharp brake applications on a conveniently wet road. I progressively wound back the bias until the front wheels just locked in advance of the rears. The wet road helped to keep the speeds down to safe levels although probably has some small effect on overall bias (less weight transfer at slow speeds). Nevertheless, the first time I floored the pedal at speed (decelerating off the motorway for a sharp exit road from 70+ mph) the result was very satisfactory, even without servo assistance (go for the smallest m/c bore size if you do away with the brake servo).

My pedal box is the original '78 Alfasud unit welded into the chassis. There is enough room for a pair of AP Racing master cylinders (with remote reservoirs) where the single tandem cylinder was fitted, and the original clutch cylinder stays in the same position. My brake pedal has been modified to incorporate the sleeve for the balance bar spherical joint, and I've even been able to keep the natty little shield-shaped rubbers!

Are those pictures of the one-and-only Sprint 6C? The rear louvre looks different from the factory photos somehow... perhaps because its colour-coded? Still haven't seen a picture of the engine/transaxle combination on the Alfa either...

What is that just behind the car in the rear quarter view? Clearly a GTV, it looks like it has a "periscopa" dorsal air intake on its roof - GTV6 mid-mount, perhaps?

Good luck, Sixnut, you'll need lots of enthusiasm to see it through, but I'm really looking forward to seeing the end result!

Lauren
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

The SVA test does exactly the same to check brake bias - the fronts need to lock just before the back. Good job our 'sud doesn't need an SVA!
KR James
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Many thanks for the advice AO ers. The pics are a real bonus Pascs, I think this one is slightly different to the one in "Tims Page" as the rear spoiler is colour coded and there is twin separated tail pipes? I wonder how many where actually made by Alfa/Autodelta. The rear side window treatment is interesting - Non opening?, slightly deeper?, possibly slightly curved?, more flush fitting?
The thoughts on brakes are much appreciated, several possibilities and I'm looking at the 33 brakes thread as well.
I have also aquired another Sprint! It is the "V Rusty suitable for spares" one from e-bay it was so close by and the price was right so it made a lot of sense.......?
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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........ so it made a lot of sense.......?
Yes thats the right attitude

Found those 6C pics on flickr
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